2.4/5GHz Meshes and Evohome

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  • HenGus
    Automated Home Legend
    • May 2014
    • 1001

    2.4/5GHz Meshes and Evohome

    I am using a Fritz!Box router which is auto channel changing and now has its own 2.4/5GHz mesh. Three Sonos speakers also have their own mesh.

    Yesterday, at 1pm, I turned on Sonos to listen to the news. The Sonos app couldn't connect to my system. It did so on the third attempt. On checking Evotouch, the fault log was showing sensor faults on the HW and 2 out of my 12 zones which resolved themselves within 2 minutes. My guess is that at some time previously the Fritz!Box changed wifi channel which then brought it into conflict with the Sonos mesh. I have had this happen before - detected by an occasional loss in Sonos transmission - but it hasn't affected Evohome.

    Should 2.4/5GHz meshes be affecting Evohome in this way? Any thoughts as to what might happen vis-a-vis Evohome when we see the rollout of SMETS2 smart meters which establish a 868MHz WAN?
  • paulockenden
    Automated Home Legend
    • Apr 2015
    • 1719

    #2
    2.4/5GHz stuff can’t cause sensor faults with Evohome - completely different frequencies, as you allude.

    Sometimes coincidences happen.

    Comment

    • HenGus
      Automated Home Legend
      • May 2014
      • 1001

      #3
      A pretty big coincidence. This guy has a slightly different slant on things:

      Comment

      • paulockenden
        Automated Home Legend
        • Apr 2015
        • 1719

        #4
        He says Zigbee and WiFi can clash, which is true, as they are both 2.4GHz.

        Comment

        • dty
          Automated Home Ninja
          • Aug 2016
          • 489

          #5
          Assuming your Sonos is using WiFi standards, it should clash even if it's using the same channel as your Fritz!Box. You may get bandwidth and/or latency issues, but they should continue to work.

          Sounds like coincidence to me.

          Comment

          • HenGus
            Automated Home Legend
            • May 2014
            • 1001

            #6
            The ‘clash’ is down to Sonos re-establishing its Mesh after the Fritz!box has auto channel changed in the 2.GHz band. Similar problems have been reported with the Sky Q mesh. I have had this discussion with Sonos support and, after reviewing support diagnostic logs, their only suggestion was to select a fixed channel on the router, or hard wire my 3 Sonos speakers. I still believe that the temporary loss of comms by 3 Evohome sensors was home WiFi interference related. The HW sensor sits directly above the Evotouch, and the 2 zones that lost contact temporarily were the two most distant from the controller. Not a big issue but one to monitor.

            Comment

            • dty
              Automated Home Ninja
              • Aug 2016
              • 489

              #7
              Is the Sonos mesh a network (TCP, UDP) level mesh on top of the Fritz!Box WiFi? Your first post implied that it was making it's own WiFi network. If the latter is the case, then I don't see why it would need to re-establish its mesh just because the Fritz!Box had changed channels. The two should be able to operate simultaneously on the same channel. Even if the former were the case, it still shouldn't have to re-establish anything just because the physical medium is using a different frequency suddenly.

              Either way, I'm finding it very hard to see how any of this could be related to Evohome since they work on completely different frequencies. Plus, the Evohome protocol is not connection-oriented. For it to be interrupted in any meaningful way would require the noise (by implication, the channel hop) to happen at the exact same moment as the sensors were trying to transmit, which, absent anyone fiddling with the override knob, they only do periodically. It seems unlikely that such a time clash would occur. It seems unlikely that such a clash would actually have an effect on Evohome. Plus, to show up as a fault in the fault log, I *think* the controller would have had to have missed several transmissions from the sensor over a period of something like half an hour.

              Comment

              • DBMandrake
                Automated Home Legend
                • Sep 2014
                • 2361

                #8
                Originally posted by dty View Post
                Plus, to show up as a fault in the fault log, I *think* the controller would have had to have missed several transmissions from the sensor over a period of something like half an hour.
                It's even longer than that depending on the sensor.

                The hot water sensor only transmits hourly if the temperature is low and unchanging - which is why it takes SO long for the hot water temperature to appear after a controller reboot. Because of this it takes over 3 hours of no transmissions from the hot water sensor before any sort of fault is logged.

                No comms with BDR91's also seems to take about three hours before a fault is logged, even though they communicate every 20 minutes at least. No comms from an HR92 I think results in a fault after about an hour but I'd have to check that again.

                Comment

                • HenGus
                  Automated Home Legend
                  • May 2014
                  • 1001

                  #9
                  Originally posted by DBMandrake View Post
                  It's even longer than that depending on the sensor.

                  The hot water sensor only transmits hourly if the temperature is low and unchanging - which is why it takes SO long for the hot water temperature to appear after a controller reboot. Because of this it takes over 3 hours of no transmissions from the hot water sensor before any sort of fault is logged.

                  No comms with BDR91's also seems to take about three hours before a fault is logged, even though they communicate every 20 minutes at least. No comms from an HR92 I think results in a fault after about an hour but I'd have to check that again.
                  Having spent my working life in the air, one of the things that I learnt through experience is that engineers will occasionally say that something is impossible even when the recorded evidence trail indicates otherwise. (Not a cheap shot at engineers)

                  The only thing that has changed with my wifi setup in recent days is a firmware upgrade to my Fritz!Box and Repeater which establishes 2.4/5GHz a mesh. Sonos also has its own mesh.

                  The facts are:

                  1. The Sonos App would not detect the Sonos system. Time 12.59. It established contact on the third attempt and Sonos streamed faultlessly. I suspect that this was down to the Fritz!Box auto wifi channel changing. This has resulted in problems (transmission breaks) with the Sky Q mesh which is why my Q boxes are now hard wired.

                  2. The Evotouch controller log shows a loss of sensor comms at 13.02 (the controller runs 3 minutes ahead of time) on the HW sensor and the two zones most distant from the controller. The faults self-restored at 13.04. No faults were reported with the OT relay or HW BDR, or the other 9 heating zones.

                  3. Evohome has been fine for the past 40+ hours.

                  Clearly, I will continue to monitor - particularly, as the Fritz!Box mesh is still beta firmware.

                  One of a number of 'unexplained and that can't happen' experiences was when I was piloting an aircraft with three independent inertial navigation systems. The aircraft came up to a turning point that required a 30 degree track change to the right. The navigation system initiated a turn to the left and we rolled out on track some 330 degrees of turn later. The engineering response was that what my crew and I had witnessed was just not possible as all three navigation systems were independent and, if one went rogue, the other 2 would maintain correct navigation. When the engineers 'milked' the empirical flight data, they could see that the technical report that I had submitted was indeed correct. All 3 inertial navigation systems were found to be in perfect working order and the aircraft was returned to service with NO Fault Found. There was a repeat of the navigation problem a week later and, again, all three boxes passed serviceability checks. We 'resolved' the problem by taking out all three navigation boxes from the affected aircraft, and switching them with a box from three other aircraft on the fleet. The problem never happened again during my time on the fleet.

                  In sum, I don't know if my interference theory holds up. Time will tell.

                  Comment

                  • top brake
                    Automated Home Legend
                    • Feb 2015
                    • 837

                    #10
                    Originally posted by HenGus View Post
                    I am using a Fritz!Box router which is auto channel changing and now has its own 2.4/5GHz mesh. Three Sonos speakers also have their own mesh.

                    Yesterday, at 1pm, I turned on Sonos to listen to the news. The Sonos app couldn't connect to my system. It did so on the third attempt. On checking Evotouch, the fault log was showing sensor faults on the HW and 2 out of my 12 zones which resolved themselves within 2 minutes. My guess is that at some time previously the Fritz!Box changed wifi channel which then brought it into conflict with the Sonos mesh. I have had this happen before - detected by an occasional loss in Sonos transmission - but it hasn't affected Evohome.

                    Should 2.4/5GHz meshes be affecting Evohome in this way? Any thoughts as to what might happen vis-a-vis Evohome when we see the rollout of SMETS2 smart meters which establish a 868MHz WAN?
                    have a read of this http://www.honeywelluk.com/documents...20controls.pdf
                    I work for Resideo, posts are personal and my own views.

                    Comment

                    • rotor
                      Automated Home Guru
                      • Aug 2015
                      • 124

                      #11
                      Hi HenGus, automatic channel switching is generally pretty bad and can cause lots of problems. You should find the setting on the FritzBox and disable auto channel switching so you can set the channels manually. For 2.4GHz only use channels 1, 6, or 11. Once you've chosen a channel, go into the Sonos settings, and pick a different channel. From now on the FritzBox and the Sonos won't clash with each other. You should set the 5GHz channel manually also (you should be able to choose any of the channels -- at home I have two access points, one is set to channel 36, the other to 44).

                      Comment

                      • DBMandrake
                        Automated Home Legend
                        • Sep 2014
                        • 2361

                        #12
                        Originally posted by HenGus View Post
                        The only thing that has changed with my wifi setup in recent days is a firmware upgrade to my Fritz!Box and Repeater which establishes 2.4/5GHz a mesh. Sonos also has its own mesh.

                        The facts are:

                        1. The Sonos App would not detect the Sonos system. Time 12.59. It established contact on the third attempt and Sonos streamed faultlessly. I suspect that this was down to the Fritz!Box auto wifi channel changing. This has resulted in problems (transmission breaks) with the Sky Q mesh which is why my Q boxes are now hard wired.

                        2. The Evotouch controller log shows a loss of sensor comms at 13.02 (the controller runs 3 minutes ahead of time) on the HW sensor and the two zones most distant from the controller. The faults self-restored at 13.04. No faults were reported with the OT relay or HW BDR, or the other 9 heating zones.

                        3. Evohome has been fine for the past 40+ hours.
                        Have you considered the possibility of wide spectrum (I was going to say broadband, but that term has now been seconded and abused in the internet realm...) interference that was interfering with all RF comms in the house ? Could be something as simple as a malfunctioning microwave, an arcing switch or relay somewhere in the house, power tools, (at yours or the neighbours etc) something like that.

                        Some sources of interference especially anything arc related can cover an incredibly wide spectrum and it's possible that your Evohome and Wifi got hit by the same interference source rather than interfering with each other.

                        The auto wifi channel changing may have been prompted by said interference rather than being the cause of it.

                        Comment

                        • HenGus
                          Automated Home Legend
                          • May 2014
                          • 1001

                          #13
                          Originally posted by DBMandrake View Post
                          Have you considered the possibility of wide spectrum (I was going to say broadband, but that term has now been seconded and abused in the internet realm...) interference that was interfering with all RF comms in the house ? Could be something as simple as a malfunctioning microwave, an arcing switch or relay somewhere in the house, power tools, (at yours or the neighbours etc) something like that.

                          Some sources of interference especially anything arc related can cover an incredibly wide spectrum and it's possible that your Evohome and Wifi got hit by the same interference source rather than interfering with each other.

                          The auto wifi channel changing may have been prompted by said interference rather than being the cause of it.
                          Unless a pattern develops, it may well fall into the category of just one of those things. I have had issues with meshes and breaks in radio/TV streaming before when my router has auto channel changed but it has never had an impact on Evotouch. I have also had an occasional loss of comms with the odd HR92 sensor and the HW sensor. The odd thing here is 3 separate sensors all having a comms fault at 13.02 which cleared on all 3 zones 2 minutes later.

                          Comment

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