Vaillant EcoTec 838 and hourglass

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  • Dan_Robinson
    Automated Home Ninja
    • Jun 2012
    • 347

    #31
    Originally posted by bruce_miranda View Post
    I still don't understand why the boiler or the installation doesn't have a flow gauge, that too is such an important factor in efficiency. Some modern pumps have them though.
    Have you seen the price of them?
    Kind Regards - Dan Robinson (Jennings Heating Ltd)

    Comment

    • Karrimor
      Automated Home Jr Member
      • Oct 2016
      • 24

      #32
      When I had a new combi boiler fitted in the autumn of 2012, the Ecotec plus 831, the installer left the boiler with its default settings. As a result I had problems with the heating as the boiler would continually "sleep" and enter anti cycling mode. This was due to the boiler setting "D.0 Heating partial load" being left at Auto and not adjusted for my property particulars (1930s 3 bed semi, 8 radiators). From reading many posts (on http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk and www.diynot.com), I changed the value of D.0 to 16kW which seem to "fix" my problem. I don't think my installer really understood boiler settings other than the boiler flow temperature (70C) or hot water temperature (50C).

      For the boiler's first annual service, I used a Vaillant Engineer. I asked him about the D.0 setting being left on AUTO. He said that the AUTO doesn't really work and gave me a rough guide of between 12-15kW for my property. I now run the boiler at 11kW ("D.001 Overrun time":7 mins, "D.002 Max. burner anti-cycling time":30 mins, and a flow temperature of 68C).

      I'm not sure if newer Vaillant boilers are any better with D.0 being set to AUTO.

      Comment

      • dty
        Automated Home Ninja
        • Aug 2016
        • 489

        #33
        Originally posted by Dan_Robinson View Post
        Broadly speaking yes, but that 55 degrees is not a fixed value. One also needs to consider how much of the HEX is below 55. I size my systems to run at 60 degree flow. If ufh only then 50. More or less 100%of the HEX surface area is condensing... Not just the first 1 or 2 coils of the HEX.
        I pull values from eBus every 30 seconds and store them in a database for graphing. In the absence of any eBus variable which tells me anything useful, this is the best approximation I can do.

        Out of interest, with a flow of 60, how hot do you keep your hot water? I'm currently running a flow of 75 and my DHW is set to 60. As you mentioned earlier, I can see the dT (from flow to stored water) decreasing and the boiler modulating down as the cylinder heats up. If I had my flow any lower, I think it would take forever to heat the cylinder. (I also have a poorly performing, and poorly insulated cylinder which loses 15C+ overnight with no use - it's next on my list after the basement!)

        Comment

        • mtmcgavock
          Automated Home Legend
          • Mar 2017
          • 507

          #34
          Originally posted by Karrimor View Post
          When I had a new combi boiler fitted in the autumn of 2012, the Ecotec plus 831, the installer left the boiler with its default settings. As a result I had problems with the heating as the boiler would continually "sleep" and enter anti cycling mode. This was due to the boiler setting "D.0 Heating partial load" being left at Auto and not adjusted for my property particulars (1930s 3 bed semi, 8 radiators). From reading many posts (on http://www.ultimatehandyman.co.uk and www.diynot.com), I changed the value of D.0 to 16kW which seem to "fix" my problem. I don't think my installer really understood boiler settings other than the boiler flow temperature (70C) or hot water temperature (50C).

          For the boiler's first annual service, I used a Vaillant Engineer. I asked him about the D.0 setting being left on AUTO. He said that the AUTO doesn't really work and gave me a rough guide of between 12-15kW for my property. I now run the boiler at 11kW ("D.001 Overrun time":7 mins, "D.002 Max. burner anti-cycling time":30 mins, and a flow temperature of 68C).

          I'm not sure if newer Vaillant boilers are any better with D.0 being set to AUTO.
          If it was trying to pump so much heat into the heating then i'm not surprised. As stated, we usually leave this setting on Auto however the system and heat only boilers we've fitted have either been correctly sized, or smaller combis (Such as 24kw) so this issue wouldn't occur the same.
          Last edited by mtmcgavock; 31 October 2017, 09:32 PM. Reason: Thought it said 838!

          Comment

          • Dan_Robinson
            Automated Home Ninja
            • Jun 2012
            • 347

            #35
            Originally posted by dty View Post
            I pull values from eBus every 30 seconds and store them in a database for graphing. In the absence of any eBus variable which tells me anything useful, this is the best approximation I can do.

            Out of interest, with a flow of 60, how hot do you keep your hot water? I'm currently running a flow of 75 and my DHW is set to 60. As you mentioned earlier, I can see the dT (from flow to stored water) decreasing and the boiler modulating down as the cylinder heats up. If I had my flow any lower, I think it would take forever to heat the cylinder. (I also have a poorly performing, and poorly insulated cylinder which loses 15C+ overnight with no use - it's next on my list after the basement!)
            The boilers I install know the difference between heating and hot water, they don't share the load so the heating is off during cylinder recharge cycles. Apart from the example above where one boiler remains on heating unless the hot water is in "ludicrous mode".

            In hot water mode they run up to 80 degrees to get the cylinder over and done with asap. I could take them to 90, but that would put them under too much stress over the expected lifespan of the appliance.
            Kind Regards - Dan Robinson (Jennings Heating Ltd)

            Comment

            • Dan_Robinson
              Automated Home Ninja
              • Jun 2012
              • 347

              #36
              Originally posted by mtmcgavock View Post
              If it was trying to pump so much heat into the heating then i'm not surprised. As stated, we usually leave this setting on Auto however the system and heat only boilers we've fitted have either been correctly sized, or smaller combis (Such as 24kw) so this issue wouldn't occur the same.
              It's interesting hearing the differences between the installations is it not?
              Kind Regards - Dan Robinson (Jennings Heating Ltd)

              Comment

              • mtmcgavock
                Automated Home Legend
                • Mar 2017
                • 507

                #37
                What's the point you are trying to make here? That Auto isn't always correct. Then yes, i'd agree. However should the correct product been installed in the first place then there shouldn't been any issue leaving it in Auto mode, as the max output would be correct in the first place.

                Comment

                • Dan_Robinson
                  Automated Home Ninja
                  • Jun 2012
                  • 347

                  #38
                  Originally posted by mtmcgavock View Post
                  What's the point you are trying to make here? That Auto isn't always correct. Then yes, i'd agree. However should the correct product been installed in the first place then there shouldn't been any issue leaving it in Auto mode, as the max output would be correct in the first place.
                  Calm down... I'm not making any point, other than it is interesting that we have several examples of good and bad from the non professional posters. If anything I am agreeing with you. Which considering I don't actually like Vaillant, is something in itself.
                  Kind Regards - Dan Robinson (Jennings Heating Ltd)

                  Comment

                  • mtmcgavock
                    Automated Home Legend
                    • Mar 2017
                    • 507

                    #39
                    Originally posted by Dan_Robinson View Post
                    Calm down... I'm not making any point, other than it is interesting that we have several examples of good and bad from the non professional posters. If anything I am agreeing with you. Which considering I don't actually like Vaillant, is something in itself.
                    I wasn't actually taking it as an insult, it was that I didn't understand what you were trying to say

                    In regards to Vaillant, they're the better of the bunch IMO. I can't comment on Intergas (Which I noticed you seem to like) as i've never installed them or to be honest maintained them as they are few and far between in our area. To be fair they all have their positives and negatives (Some which you only find out down the line), if only someone could manufacture the perfect boiler

                    Comment

                    • Dan_Robinson
                      Automated Home Ninja
                      • Jun 2012
                      • 347

                      #40
                      Originally posted by mtmcgavock View Post
                      I wasn't actually taking it as an insult, it was that I didn't understand what you were trying to say

                      In regards to Vaillant, they're the better of the bunch IMO. I can't comment on Intergas (Which I noticed you seem to like) as i've never installed them or to be honest maintained them as they are few and far between in our area. To be fair they all have their positives and negatives (Some which you only find out down the line), if only someone could manufacture the perfect boiler

                      Indeed. I love installing Intergas, but their turn-down is poor. Vaillant are the only "big brand" I will entertain installing, and then only the 6 series. I refuse on general principle to install Worcester.

                      If you're happy with Bunnies, then cool.. I heard today that they're doing some big developments in their in-house controls including multi zone and remote management. If that's the case then the market could be in for a big shake up. Which it sorely needs.

                      Its a shame their build quality has suffered in recent years as I would install the bigger units as an alternative to multiple Intergas if the space prevented. But, I still have issues with them and the barefaced lies they spun over the Homeswerve/customer data debacle (I was at the pow-wow they had at Belper where they tried to placate installer etc by giving excuses for the data breaches. It was an entertaining morning
                      Kind Regards - Dan Robinson (Jennings Heating Ltd)

                      Comment

                      • mtmcgavock
                        Automated Home Legend
                        • Mar 2017
                        • 507

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Dan_Robinson View Post
                        Indeed. I love installing Intergas, but their turn-down is poor. Vaillant are the only "big brand" I will entertain installing, and then only the 6 series. I refuse on general principle to install Worcester.

                        If you're happy with Bunnies, then cool.. I heard today that they're doing some big developments in their in-house controls including multi zone and remote management. If that's the case then the market could be in for a big shake up. Which it sorely needs.

                        Its a shame their build quality has suffered in recent years as I would install the bigger units as an alternative to multiple Intergas if the space prevented. But, I still have issues with them and the barefaced lies they spun over the Homeswerve/customer data debacle (I was at the pow-wow they had at Belper where they tried to placate installer etc by giving excuses for the data breaches. It was an entertaining morning
                        As a company we fitted a lot of Vaillants 15-20 years ago, and we moved on to Worcester about 10 years ago, and now we've returned to Vaillant in the past 3 years. Same as you we now won't fit Worcester on principle, I don't know where they get their pricing strategy from, they like saying they're the best, their boiler designs are awful (Have you seen inside a CDI compact? ), and they're full of plastic parts that fail.

                        I think some of the newer Vaillants build quality is OK. I thought they had improved of recent over some of the parts that were in some of the early condensing models (Such as the rubber hoses etc.) But none will ever be as reliable as the turboMaxes. I've been quite impressed with their after service though, had a leaking diverter on one we installed. Rang at 11am, they were out by 1pm. Can't say fairer than that...

                        I've never been keen on Vaillant controls, so it will be interesting to see what they come up with. They usually like to overcomplicate things.

                        Funnily enough we've never installed one of the Vaillant light commerical boilers and have a job to do using one. We usually would put more than one boiler in but space is an issue and it'll have to have one boiler unfortunately.

                        Comment

                        • Dan_Robinson
                          Automated Home Ninja
                          • Jun 2012
                          • 347

                          #42
                          Those hoses are better filters than the bloody filters are .

                          I've seen the Compact and thought it was done by the work experience lad. LOL.

                          I have a soft spot for the original Turbomax. Had to repair my brother's diverter on Easter bank holiday when my then, 90 year old grandmother and 70 years old mother (used to medeteranian climates) were staying. We were on the business end of a few bottles of Leffe each and decided, as my spares packs had already been liberated of the diaphragms, to borrow the inner tube from my nephew's bike.

                          Lasted 3 weeks IIRC.

                          .
                          Kind Regards - Dan Robinson (Jennings Heating Ltd)

                          Comment

                          • Dan_Robinson
                            Automated Home Ninja
                            • Jun 2012
                            • 347

                            #43
                            Did a couple of the 656's a while ago. Seem to remember being caught out by the connections underneath, but it was otherwise an easy job. Normally we'd have used an Atag Q series, but the Bunnies slotted into the same footprint. Now Atag have had their restructuring we've moved solely to Intergas.

                            Not everyone's cup of tea, but very flexible and embarrassing to service. Eco rf is our go to boiler for combis and system. Those pics above are 36 rf's driving the diverter valves directly off the board using cylinder sensors. OpenTherm or weather comp for heating, so we're using the remote management system to feed weather data to the boilers to run the mixture of ufh and rads. Total house heatloss is around 60kw (boilers are rated lower for heating). 300sqm of ufh and 240 of rads iirc.
                            Kind Regards - Dan Robinson (Jennings Heating Ltd)

                            Comment

                            • bruce_miranda
                              Automated Home Legend
                              • Jul 2014
                              • 2307

                              #44
                              There is another problem with these big boilers and Evohome. It's to do with the delay in firing up the boiler and opening the TRVs. Often the boiler is fired but it takes a while for all the TRVs to be opened up. To counter this you need to keep the bypass open at a value lower than you would have normally liked. If you don't you land up with the boiler going into limp mode and waiting. But that they causes the boiler to modulate lower, so you never get the full strength of the boiler.

                              Comment

                              • Dan_Robinson
                                Automated Home Ninja
                                • Jun 2012
                                • 347

                                #45
                                Hence, hydraulic separation, towel rails not under Evohome.

                                Besides automatic bypasses are a pita with modulating pumps.
                                Kind Regards - Dan Robinson (Jennings Heating Ltd)

                                Comment

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