New evohome FW - update WiFi 02.00.17.00 and Application 02.00.17.03

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  • DBMandrake
    Automated Home Legend
    • Sep 2014
    • 2361

    Originally posted by Giel538 View Post
    I also received the update. I was hoping that it solved some problems with the combination of open-therm, hce80 and floorheating but it did not.

    When i start heating up the floor the evohome sends a setpoint from almost 90 degrees to the boiler which is strange because no one is heating his floor with more then 50 degrees ( at least i hope that people are not doing this :P )
    Surely your system has a mixer and doesn't just send the 90 degree water from the boiler straight to the underfloor loop ?

    Also, why do you have your maximum flow temperature set to 90 ? Turn it down to a more reasonable maximum ?
    When the room is at the right temperature the Evohome sends a heat demand from 1% to the boiler. This 1% is a setpoint from 47 degrees and keeps my boiler on. I would say that when the room is heated up the Evohome should stop sending a setpoint and stop heating. Specially with floor heating because it is a slow system to prevent a temperature overshoot.
    A proper proportional temperature control system like Evohome should not "stop heating" when a room is up to temperature. If it did, the room would fall below the set point, then have to heat up again, pass above the set point, turn off etc...In short, it would oscillate above and below the set point. This is what old fashioned conventional on/off thermostats did and this is not efficient or comfortable.

    A proportional system tries to find exactly the right amount of heat output to equal the heat loss in the room thus maintaining a steady temperature. To maintain a steady temperature there must be a small amount of heat constantly put into the room so if it sending a 1% heat demand to the boiler it looks like it has found this steady equilibrium, thus it is working as designed.

    Comment

    • Westyfield2
      Automated Home Lurker
      • Jan 2018
      • 7

      Mine updated overnight. I had not contacted support to ask for Beta access.

      Was
      Application: 2.00.11.21
      WiFi: 2.00.11.00

      Now
      Application: 2.00.17.03
      WiFi: 2.00.17.00


      The three changes I've noticed are:
      1. Outside temperature display in the top left corner
      2. The controller has now connected to a channel 13 access point (previously it was connecting to a channel 6 access point that was further away)
      3. Heat demand percentage per zone is available in system summary in the installer mode.


      The hot water was already a tank icon, and I already had hot water boost function, so they are not changes for me.

      Comments:
      • I'd prefer it if you could see heat demand without entering installer mode. Perhaps just a flame on the homepage tile, and then the percentage if you tap to open up the zone.
      • Controller is still only seeing 2.4GHz WiFi, but I'm presuming it's a hardware change to enable 5GHz.

      Comment

      • rvb99
        Automated Home Sr Member
        • Oct 2017
        • 74

        Originally posted by Giel538 View Post
        I also received the update. I was hoping that it solved some problems with the combination of open-therm, hce80 and floorheating but it did not.

        When i start heating up the floor the evohome sends a setpoint from almost 90 degrees to the boiler which is strange because no one is heating his floor with more then 50 degrees ( at least i hope that people are not doing this :P ) When the room is at the right temperature the Evohome sends a heat demand from 1% to the boiler. This 1% is a setpoint from 47 degrees and keeps my boiler on. I would say that when the room is heated up the Evohome should stop sending a setpoint and stop heating. Specially with floor heating because it is a slow system to prevent a temperature overshoot.



        Aslo the HCE80 opens the valves while the boiler is still on. I was hoping that this was fixed becaue it is a known problem.


        Are there people here who have better experience with floor heating?
        I'm using an HCE80 with a couple of evohome zones and 4 HCE zones (7 hydraulic circuits in total). I installed both the UFH system and Evohome myself. No problems at all. What is your setup ? You have thermostats set up as sensors ? mixer pump I guess? I think it is probably normal that it is calling for maximum heat, as your UFH mixer system should be bringing the manifold temperatures to around 35-45 deg. e.g its your UFH system that defines the UFH water circuit temperatures, not Evohome. Evohome learns and does the processing and valve control (either fully open or fully closed) to bring the room up to temperature based on the warmup.cool down lag etc. Of course the hotter you preset the manifold temperature, the faster the warmup, but in any case the floor temperature should never go above 29deg ( usually means presetting the manifold temp to somewhere between 35-45). You definitely should not be feeding the UFH pipes directly from the boiler.
        Last edited by rvb99; 20 January 2018, 05:26 PM.

        Comment

        • Giel538
          Automated Home Lurker
          • Jan 2018
          • 4

          I have an Intergas HRE 36/30A boiler (not sure if you can by it in the UK). This boiler have an internal modulated pump. I don't have any external pumps. I have created 5 zones (all UFH). Four zones are sleeping rooms with own thermostats and the 5th one is the living room/kitchen with the Evohome as thermostat. I have the Evohome only for a few weeks and still testing. I only use the living room to test with.

          I monitor with Opentherm monitor (opentherm gateway) and there i can see that the max central heating setpoint is always 90 degrees while i manually set the maximum to 45 degrees. So the water is never hotter then 45 degrees.

          When my room is heated up i can see that the Evohome control setpoint is slowly going down which is good. @DBMandrake, i understand your explanation and i will monitor how much gas it uses to produce the "1% heat demand"

          @rvb99 Are you sure that your Evohome HCE80 zones are always open when the boiler is on? When i monitor the HCE80 it is going from on to off and a few minutes later to on again. I heard that the HCE80 is not working correctly with opentherm systems because the MT4 motors are only on /off and not like the HR92 which can be closed for like 60% or 40%. That is why it might be better to use on/off boiler control for the HCE80
          Last edited by Giel538; 20 January 2018, 06:26 PM.

          Comment

          • HenGus
            Automated Home Legend
            • May 2014
            • 1001

            Originally posted by Giel538 View Post
            I have an Intergas HRE 36/30A boiler (not sure if you can by it in the UK). This boiler have an internal modulated pump. I don't have any external pumps. I have created 5 zones (all UFH). Four zones are sleeping rooms with own thermostats and the 5th one is the living room/kitchen with the Evohome as thermostat. I have the Evohome only for a few weeks and still testing. I only use the living room to test with.

            I monitor with Opentherm monitor (opentherm gateway) and there i can see that the max central heating setpoint is always 90 degrees while i manually set the maximum to 45 degrees. So the water is never hotter then 45 degrees.

            When my room is heated up i can see that the Evohome control setpoint is slowly going down which is good. @DBMandrake, i understand your explanation and i will monitor how much gas it uses to produce the "1% heat demand"

            @rvb99 Are you sure that your Evohome HCE80 zones are always open when the boiler is on? When i monitor the HCE80 it is going from on to off and a few minutes later to on again. I heard that the HCE80 is not working correctly with opentherm systems because the MT4 motors are only on /off and not like the HR92 which can be closed for like 60% or 40%. That is why it might be better to use on/off boiler control for the HCE80
            That’s interesting. I have an Atag boiler with Opentherm control and I have no manual control over the max flow temperature. Opentherm may well demand 90C for hot water heating but this is limited to the TSet Max (70C in my case) in the boiler profile. When a HR92 demands heat and is out with the TPI temperature range, the boiler flow temperature will slowly but steadily rise to TMax Set and then fall as zones reach their target temperatures. I can play with the manual CH flow setting all day but it does nothing.

            It is interesting to note the differences between different boiler and Opentherm bridge combinations.

            Comment

            • rvb99
              Automated Home Sr Member
              • Oct 2017
              • 74

              The boiler is on when the manifold valves are open. Ie the hce80 will turn on the ufh mixer/ circulation pump , open the relevent manifold valves and then call for boiler heat .

              I do not understand your system . You should not be feeding the ufh pipes directly from the boiler ( whether opentherm or not) . It should be going through a mixer and that mixer should be preset to provide a manifold temperature of between 35 and 45 deg. This manifold temperature setting is independent of evohome and has nothing to do with any opentherm setting . Your boiler should ideally be sending water at between 70-90 deg and the ufh system mixer should bring this down to 35-45 at the manifold , depending on the temperature you have preset. .

              Comment

              • Giel538
                Automated Home Lurker
                • Jan 2018
                • 4

                cv2.jpgcv3.jpg setup.JPG

                On this pictures you can see the behaviour of my system. From 10 AM till 11.40 i was playing around a bit so that is not normal behaviour. What i still don't understand is that 2 times (just before 9.30 and around 9.52 the setpoint is set back to 10 degrees and the boiler stopped working (for 2 minutes exactly).

                It is also showing that the water temp is always limited at 45 degrees (it does have some small overshoots). The setpoint temp (started at 80) is dropping while the room is heated up (ending on 47).

                The room setpoint and the room temperature are not sent by the Evohome. But i think that is because it has multiple zones. With my own thermostat and no zones this 2 values where also sent over opentherm. unfortunately the return water temp data is not available.

                @Hengus, It is true that there are differences in the opentherm implementation between boiler manufactures and also which data is available. Here you can find a table the sent message id's based on the type of boilers and/or thermostats: http://otgw.tclcode.com/matrix.cgi#boilers

                @rvb99: the 3th picture is coming from the manual. C is a bypass. This is how they build our house, and also the other 50 houses around me
                Last edited by Giel538; 20 January 2018, 08:05 PM.

                Comment

                • Dan_Robinson
                  Automated Home Ninja
                  • Jun 2012
                  • 347

                  OpenTherm control setpoint will be different to the boiler Tmax. Limit your boiler to a maximum of 50 degrees using the buttons on the front. The Evohome will call for 90 degrees but the boiler will max out at 50.

                  When ambient temperature gets close to the setpoint Evohome will start to throttle back the boiler.

                  It's a clumsy implementation sadly, but it does work.

                  I surprised the boiler pump has enough juice to run the ufh directly with no additional pumps.
                  Kind Regards - Dan Robinson (Jennings Heating Ltd)

                  Comment

                  • lorcanjc
                    Automated Home Jr Member
                    • Jan 2017
                    • 12

                    Originally posted by HenGus View Post
                    Outside Temperature at top left of Zone Page and HW blue/red dot now a tank icon. Heat demands are accessed via the installer settings pages.
                    Found the percentage demand but no outside temperature

                    Comment

                    • rvb99
                      Automated Home Sr Member
                      • Oct 2017
                      • 74

                      Originally posted by Giel538 View Post
                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]1201[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1202[/ATTACH] [ATTACH=CONFIG]1203[/ATTACH]

                      On this pictures you can see the behaviour of my system. From 10 AM till 11.40 i was playing around a bit so that is not normal behaviour. What i still don't understand is that 2 times (just before 9.30 and around 9.52 the setpoint is set back to 10 degrees and the boiler stopped working (for 2 minutes exactly).

                      It is also showing that the water temp is always limited at 45 degrees (it does have some small overshoots). The setpoint temp (started at 80) is dropping while the room is heated up (ending on 47).

                      The room setpoint and the room temperature are not sent by the Evohome. But i think that is because it has multiple zones. With my own thermostat and no zones this 2 values where also sent over opentherm. unfortunately the return water temp data is not available.

                      @Hengus, It is true that there are differences in the opentherm implementation between boiler manufactures and also which data is available. Here you can find a table the sent message id's based on the type of boilers and/or thermostats: http://otgw.tclcode.com/matrix.cgi#boilers

                      @rvb99: the 3th picture is coming from the manual. C is a bypass. This is how they build our house, and also the other 50 houses around me
                      Wow ! Which country are you in? That’s the most basic ufh system I’ve ever seen . What is controlling the bypass? I’m not surprised you are having problems.

                      If definitely not good practice to run direct from boiler without a mixer/pump. In fact I believe there are even special mixers for Opentherm boilers.

                      Comment

                      • DBMandrake
                        Automated Home Legend
                        • Sep 2014
                        • 2361

                        Originally posted by MrBoy View Post
                        So we awoke to find our system borked today, is this likely due to the update?

                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]1196[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1197[/ATTACH]
                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]1198[/ATTACH]
                        Not borked. It just means the controller recently rebooted and hasn't received any temperature updates from the zones showing hourglasses since the reboot.

                        This can take up to about 30-60 minutes for heating zones and more than an hour for hot water. Zones at a steady temperature don't send updates very often.

                        Comment

                        • Dan_Robinson
                          Automated Home Ninja
                          • Jun 2012
                          • 347

                          Originally posted by rvb99 View Post
                          Wow ! Which country are you in? That’s the most basic ufh system I’ve ever seen . What is controlling the bypass? I’m not surprised you are having problems.

                          If definitely not good practice to run direct from boiler without a mixer/pump. In fact I believe there are even special mixers for Opentherm boilers.
                          I'm guessing Holland.
                          Kind Regards - Dan Robinson (Jennings Heating Ltd)

                          Comment

                          • SteveP
                            Automated Home Guru
                            • Dec 2012
                            • 190

                            looks like the pixies have been busy overnight! I woke this morning to find the outside world blanketed in snow and my evohome fully upgraded I can now set my "posh garden shed/office" electric heating using the new electric heating zone but just need to wade through the snow to carry out the rebinding Have told the wife the immortal words "I'm going out, I might be gone some time"!
                            Last edited by SteveP; 21 January 2018, 12:42 PM.

                            Comment

                            • G4RHL
                              Automated Home Legend
                              • Jan 2015
                              • 1580

                              Originally posted by SteveP View Post
                              looks like the pixies have been busy overnight! I woke this morning to find the outside world blanketed in snow and my evohome fully upgraded I can now set my "posh garden shed/office" electric heating using the new electric heating zone but just need to wade through the snow to carry out the rebinding Have told the wife the immortal words "I'm going out, I might be gone some time"!
                              You got a Man Shed then! Jealous!

                              Comment

                              • fergie
                                Automated Home Sr Member
                                • Mar 2017
                                • 92

                                Originally posted by HenGus View Post
                                That’s interesting. I have an Atag boiler with Opentherm control and I have no manual control over the max flow temperature. Opentherm may well demand 90C for hot water heating but this is limited to the TSet Max (70C in my case) in the boiler profile. When a HR92 demands heat and is out with the TPI temperature range, the boiler flow temperature will slowly but steadily rise to TMax Set and then fall as zones reach their target temperatures. I can play with the manual CH flow setting all day but it does nothing.

                                It is interesting to note the differences between different boiler and Opentherm bridge combinations.
                                If would be great if we could then use the new information to help our set ups. For example I think my Atag would be a lot more efficient if evohome called for max heat when there is hot water demand, but called for say only half if the demand was radiators only. It would be even better if we could also control / set some parameters around how it acts.

                                Comment

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