Honeywell Valencia problems

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • DBMandrake
    Automated Home Legend
    • Sep 2014
    • 2361

    Honeywell Valencia problems

    So I've just spent quite a bit of time and effort replacing my cheap crappy valve bodies with Honeywell Valencia's.

    One reason I did this is because my old valves did not match the HR92's well (seemingly) and would not fully open or fully close without using Stroke 1 mode.

    I was expecting the Valencia to be a better match with the HR92, but so far I'm pretty disappointed!

    My living room is currently set to 21 degrees, but the room temperature is only 20 degrees. The controller reports a heat demand of 42% from the zone, the boiler is up to temperature and the valve position on the HR92 reports 74% which should be more than enough as with my old valves they would start flowing at a valve position of about 30%. (Not coincidentally a valve position of >30% starts to generate heat demand on the controller)

    Despite all this the radiator is cold and no water is flowing! It seems that no water actually flows through the valve until the valve position is past 74%. So my boiler is sitting there cycling producing its flow temperature with not a single radiator in the house flowing at all. (As this is the only zone on at the moment) DOH!

    Surely this is not normal ? Any advice from the experts ?

    Yes, I've had the gear adaptor off and refitted it, multiple times, yes I've made sure to fully unwind the black wheel before fitting the HR92 and it goes through it's calibration process, yet every time, the threshold at which it starts to allow water to flow is >75% which is not normal in my experience. With my old valves they started to flow at about 30% pin position, which corresponds with the point where the HR92 starts to call for heat.

    I also notice that as I screw the adaptor on with the black wheel fully wound out that I can clearly hear that the pin is being pressed down somewhat as I can hear the flow rate changing. So even with the black wheel wound out fully it is already not allowing the valve to flow fully.

    It's as if the pin is too long! Surely I don't need to file the pin down ???!

    Hopefully someone has an idea because at the moment I feel like I've wasted a lot of money and time and have ended up changing a system that was working acceptably to one that is not working properly at all now as it is calling for heat from the boiler when the radiator is not flowing.

    Edit: If I unscrew the white base from the valve body by about 1 1/4 turns (until it doesn't quite push the pin down with the black wheel wound out) it seems to work as I would expect. However leaving the base loose like this is not acceptable of course.

    Edit 2: If I enable Stroke 1 mode it partly works around the issue too with the point where the valve starts flowing being much closer to the point where it starts to call for heat. But part of the reason for changing valve bodies was that I was having to use stroke 1 mode to work around problems with the old valves, also the issue of the adaptor restricting full flow remains, and I know from past experience that this radiator needs full flow from the valve to achieve room set points in winter.

    I can't understand how Honeywell could have screwed up the compatibility of the HR92 and Valencia ? One of them has a pin that is too long.

    Now I understand the reports I've seen on this forum of people with the boiler firing when no radiator is getting hot...
    Last edited by DBMandrake; 21 September 2018, 01:30 AM.
  • paulockenden
    Automated Home Legend
    • Apr 2015
    • 1719

    #2
    I don’t see that problem here. Screwing on the base doesn’t affect the flow. It's only when I turn the wheel that that happens.

    Comment

    • DBMandrake
      Automated Home Legend
      • Sep 2014
      • 2361

      #3
      Did you leave the internal balancer insert set at the default factory position ?

      If so, that causes the valve to be half closed already before you even screw the base on...in that case yes screwing the base on doesn’t close it further.

      However If you unwind the balancer to a neutral position (I chose to use the lockshield valve for balancing) the issue is as I describe - screwing the base on closes the valve by about half as the pin is nearly 2mm too long and total pin travel is only 4mm.

      And of the remaining 2mm of pin travel available, once the HR92 has calibrated water doesn’t start to flow until an indicated pin position of about 55-75%. (It does vary a little from one radiator to another) unfortunately it starts calling for heat just above 30% (remember the graph I posted a while ago?) so there is a huge range from 30% to 75% where it calls for heat from the boiler but the flow only goes through the automatic bypass valve. Incredibly wasteful.

      I still have two new unused valves for radiators that aren’t currently fitted as well as the old valves so I can take some comparative pictures viewing in the side port to illustrate what I’m talking about.

      I’m still baffled this thing got off the drawing board...even with the balancer insert set to the factory half closed position I still see no flow until 75% calibrated position on the HR92 AND maximum available flow is considerably restricted as the valve is never allowed to open more than 50% due to the balancer insert. This is a problem on two of my radiators that do need the valve fully open in winter or the room won't reach the set point.

      Almost seems like Honeywell didn’t check compatibility between their two products. They seem to be physically incompatible pin dimension wise. Sure they “work” after a fashion. But not as well as a cheap 3rd party valve, whose pin height and travel were a much closer match for the HR92, despite their other failings like corrosion and weaker return spring.

      For the moment I've set all the HR92's to Stroke 1 mode as a workaround while I investigate the issue further - that at least seems to largely solve the calibration issue - in stroke 1 mode it calibrates such that water does start to flow at about 35-40% indicated position instead of 55-75%, which helps with the wasteful boiler recycling issue, and temperature regulation seems a lot better as it is actually able to reach the set point now whereas before it would be sitting on 74% indicated pin position running the boiler at 42% duty cycle but not allowing water to flow through a cold radiator despite the room being more than 1 degree below the set point.

      However it doesn't solve the issue that none of the valves are physically able to open more than about 50% of their true full pin travel (available with balancer wound mostly out) so none can attain full flow when the HR92 commands the valve to be fully open. This will definitely be an issue for me on two radiators this winter which really do need full flow available, so I'm trying to figure out what I can do about that.
      Last edited by DBMandrake; 21 September 2018, 09:49 AM.

      Comment

      • paulockenden
        Automated Home Legend
        • Apr 2015
        • 1719

        #4
        I didn't adjust anything. Stock Valencia, stock HR92. I'm fairly certain that screwing the HR92 base to the TRV doesn't start to push the pin. I can certainly hear no effect on the water flow.

        I wasn't even aware of an internal balancer, and I suspect most people will be in the same position.

        P.

        Comment

        • DBMandrake
          Automated Home Legend
          • Sep 2014
          • 2361

          #5
          Originally posted by paulockenden View Post
          I didn't adjust anything. Stock Valencia, stock HR92. I'm fairly certain that screwing the HR92 base to the TRV doesn't start to push the pin. I can certainly hear no effect on the water flow.

          I wasn't even aware of an internal balancer, and I suspect most people will be in the same position.
          Guess I'm the only one who read the supplied information sheet then...

          The balancer is the black plastic insert around the pin with a hex on it. The information describes how you can use this instead of the lockshield valve for balancing if you choose. The reason to use it would be so that when radiators are removed and lockshield closed, the balancing setup is not lost as the lockshield can just be restored to fully open rather than having to remember where it was set.

          You can turn this in or out even by hand to act effectively as an "outer limit stop" for the pin travel. As you turn it in it closes the rest position of the valve but also reduces the available pin travel. In the default position they ship in the available 4mm of pin travel is reduced to about 2mm and the valve is about half closed - even with no base screwed onto the valve.

          Trust me, I spent several hours yesterday studying these valves and this problem - including fitting an HR92 to a spare valve not yet installed and watching the motion of the plunger in the valve in response to HR92 calibration, movement to different pin positions with set point etc, and it's easy to blow through the bottom of the valve to see at exactly what indicated pin position the valve actually starts to flow. (It moves a long way before the rubber seal unseals as it compresses a lot)

          And I saw the same results on the free floating test valve as I do on the ones installed on the radiator - with the default insert position the valve never opens more than about half way and in stroke 0 mode, doesn't start allowing anything to flow until around 75% indicated. This is definitely not the way things should be.

          Do you run yours in stroke 0 or stroke 1 ? If the former, have you ever noticed a time where a radiator is cold but a significant heat demand is indicated for the radiator on the new firmware heat demand page ?

          Comment

          • paulockenden
            Automated Home Legend
            • Apr 2015
            • 1719

            #6
            Originally posted by DBMandrake View Post
            Do you run yours in stroke 0 or stroke 1 ? If the former, have you ever noticed a time where a radiator is cold but a significant heat demand is indicated for the radiator on the new firmware heat demand page ?
            Default stroke (0), and no I've never noticed a radiator calling for heat but remaining cold. Maybe in the first couple of weeks during the learning cycle, but nothing since then.

            But - as you've amply demonstrated - I don't pay as much attention to things as you do! ;-)

            P.

            Comment

            • blowlamp
              Automated Home Sr Member
              • Apr 2017
              • 98

              #7
              Let me start by saying that I don't have any of the Honeywell products you have in my own system.

              I've got Tower radiator valve bodies, which are fitted with Peggler I-Temp controllers.

              Once I had fitted the I-Temps, I found that most of them faulted out at the initialisation/calibration phase of their installation and so everything was stopped in its tracks even though the two components were listed as 'compatible', according to the fact sheet.

              After playing around with loosening the I-Temp from the body, I found I could force the calibration to complete, but you obviously can't leave things like that, so after a bit of trial and error measuring I decided to make some packing washers in the range of ~ 1.0mm to place between valve body and I-Temp.

              Having a lathe, I was able to make mine from brass bar and part them off to correct thickness.
              After fitting, all worked perfectly. Maybe you could do similar with fibre or plastic washers if you can't find a better fix?

              Washer size: ID 23mm OD 28mm thickness to suit.




              Martin.
              Last edited by blowlamp; 21 September 2018, 11:58 AM.

              Comment

              • rotor
                Automated Home Guru
                • Aug 2015
                • 124

                #8
                I adjusted all the little black plastic hex thingies so that screwing on the HR92 base just barely touches the pin without pushing it in. I wouldn't call those black plastic hex thingies a "balancer", I'd call them an "adjuster". Seems to work well in my case. Valencia are definitely not that fantastic, I've had 2 or 3 sticking closed for me (2-3 years old).

                Comment

                • DBMandrake
                  Automated Home Legend
                  • Sep 2014
                  • 2361

                  #9
                  Originally posted by paulockenden View Post
                  Default stroke (0), and no I've never noticed a radiator calling for heat but remaining cold. Maybe in the first couple of weeks during the learning cycle, but nothing since then.
                  The HR92 will learn what valve position is needed to maintain the temperature, so eventually the room may have climbed to it's set point, however no water flow until so close to 100% would greatly reduce the effective operating range of the valve making it difficult for it to regulate the temperature.

                  And it would never change the valve position to heat demand mapping - that seems to be fixed to start demanding heat at about 30% pin position. So the issue of the boiler running without water flowing would never fix itself.

                  If you normally have multiple zones on at once you might not even be aware it's happening, but we have time periods where only one radiator is on, so a single cold to the touch radiator that is calling for heat from the boiler causing the boiler to run for no reason is quite obvious, and that's what triggered my investigation in the first place.
                  Last edited by DBMandrake; 21 September 2018, 02:00 PM.

                  Comment

                  • DBMandrake
                    Automated Home Legend
                    • Sep 2014
                    • 2361

                    #10
                    Originally posted by rotor View Post
                    I adjusted all the little black plastic hex thingies so that screwing on the HR92 base just barely touches the pin without pushing it in. I wouldn't call those black plastic hex thingies a "balancer", I'd call them an "adjuster". Seems to work well in my case. Valencia are definitely not that fantastic, I've had 2 or 3 sticking closed for me (2-3 years old).
                    Honeywell calls them an "Integrated balancing insert" in the instruction sheet. They are most definitely a balancer, just like a partially closed lockshield valve is. Anything that limits the maximum flow when a TRV is fully open to less than it would otherwise be can be considered to be a balancing valve...

                    How you describe yours adjusted is how they come out of the box. I just opened one of the two I have left over for the first time and that is how it is set, as were all the others. I've attached a picture to illustrate the differences:



                    The middle is my old peggler bulldog valve, the left is a Valencia with the out of the box balancer insert adjustment and the right is a valencia with the balancer wound out.

                    I've tried to align them so that the top face of the threaded section is in line as shown by the bottom red line, and the top red line showing the tips. This is the critical distance that affects calibration and operating range of the HR92.

                    It can be seen that the Valencia on the left has its pin position protruding exactly the same amount as the bulldog valve, however with the balancer insert unscrewed it is nearly 1.5 to 2mm longer.

                    With the balancer screwed in as supplied the total pin travel is significantly less than the bulldog valve, by about 1.5mm. Doesn't sound like a lot but consider that the HR92 only has just under 4mm pin travel available in total.

                    It can also be seen by the small vertical red lines I added inside the valves that the Valencia on the left is roughly half closed compared to the one on the right, so there is no doubt that the default balancer adjustment restricts the flow. (I can also clearly hear the difference on the radiator - the adjustment on the right is silent, the one on the left hisses fairly audibly like any partially closed valve would)

                    Let's say that the half closed position is sufficient for most radiators, (which it probably is) there is still the matter of why the HR92 calibration routine is so far out in stroke 0 mode - I don't actually understand why to be honest, that it is winding out 75% of its calibrated range before the rubber seal even lifts off the seat, compared to stroke 1 mode where it is starting to lift off it's seat at 35%.

                    Obviously the physical pin travel is the same in both cases, only the scaling of the reported position is changing, however since the heat demand is based on the "calibrated" movement scale, it's rather important that the point where heat demand is issued is also the point where water can start to flow.

                    If it opens too late compared to the heat demand (as it was here) you'll get calls to the boiler that can only flow through the ABV (assuming no other zones are demanding heat) while if its the reverse, you'll get temperature overshoots when other zones come online, since the valve has to close much more to block flow compared to where it stops sending a heat demand.

                    Stroke 1 seems to be a workable compromise at the moment but I'm still not particularly impressed by the calibration errors on the HR92 compared to the old valves, nor am I thrilled about the prospects of noiser HR92's that consume their batteries faster, as they do in stroke 1 mode. I had to use stroke 1 mode on a few of my old valves and I was hoping to be able to set them all to stroke 0 mode...
                    Last edited by DBMandrake; 21 September 2018, 02:06 PM.

                    Comment

                    • DBMandrake
                      Automated Home Legend
                      • Sep 2014
                      • 2361

                      #11
                      Originally posted by blowlamp View Post
                      Let me start by saying that I don't have any of the Honeywell products you have in my own system.

                      I've got Tower radiator valve bodies, which are fitted with Peggler I-Temp controllers.

                      Once I had fitted the I-Temps, I found that most of them faulted out at the initialisation/calibration phase of their installation and so everything was stopped in its tracks even though the two components were listed as 'compatible', according to the fact sheet.

                      After playing around with loosening the I-Temp from the body, I found I could force the calibration to complete, but you obviously can't leave things like that, so after a bit of trial and error measuring I decided to make some packing washers in the range of ~ 1.0mm to place between valve body and I-Temp.

                      Having a lathe, I was able to make mine from brass bar and part them off to correct thickness.
                      After fitting, all worked perfectly. Maybe you could do similar with fibre or plastic washers if you can't find a better fix?

                      Washer size: ID 23mm OD 28mm thickness to suit.
                      Thanks for the suggestion - the testing I did coincidentally suggested that 1mm was about the right amount. You need to make sure it can still firmly close the valve, with anything more than about 1.5mm it wasn't able to.

                      The problem I can see is that the ID needs to be really large as there is only a very narrow shoulder area where the washer could rest and still clear the large brass hex. So being able to find off the shelf washers that are a perfect fit seems unlikely. (And I'd prefer to use metal washers so there isn't any compression over time)

                      I'll keep it in mind though, I like the idea of a shim as I don't want to make any drastic non reversible changes such as filing the pin.

                      Comment

                      • blowlamp
                        Automated Home Sr Member
                        • Apr 2017
                        • 98

                        #12
                        Originally posted by DBMandrake View Post
                        Thanks for the suggestion - the testing I did coincidentally suggested that 1mm was about the right amount. You need to make sure it can still firmly close the valve, with anything more than about 1.5mm it wasn't able to.

                        The problem I can see is that the ID needs to be really large as there is only a very narrow shoulder area where the washer could rest and still clear the large brass hex. So being able to find off the shelf washers that are a perfect fit seems unlikely. (And I'd prefer to use metal washers so there isn't any compression over time)

                        I'll keep it in mind though, I like the idea of a shim as I don't want to make any drastic non reversible changes such as filing the pin.

                        Maybe you could cut up some old credit cards to test the idea? I tried thick card with pretty good results and apart from the initial compression, they bedded down nice and firm with no further loosening - now replaced with brass washers for completeness though.


                        Martin.

                        Comment

                        • rotor
                          Automated Home Guru
                          • Aug 2015
                          • 124

                          #13
                          Ooh the washers idea might be really good... I await your results DBMandrake.

                          Comment

                          • blowlamp
                            Automated Home Sr Member
                            • Apr 2017
                            • 98

                            #14
                            Lockshield (balancing) valves are usually only just 'cracked open' by 1/4 - 1/2 a turn or so to allow sufficient water flow, which must equate to a lifting of less than 1mm of the valve off its seat - but more probably something like 0.5mm. It therefore figures that a Valencia valve should be adjusted similarly if it's to perform the same function as a lockshield valve.

                            This means the HR92 would only have a very small range of movement to fulfill its task of regulating the flow of water through the radiator, so rendering the majority of the upper part of its stroke redundant.


                            Martin

                            Comment

                            • DBMandrake
                              Automated Home Legend
                              • Sep 2014
                              • 2361

                              #15
                              Originally posted by blowlamp View Post
                              Lockshield (balancing) valves are usually only just 'cracked open' by 1/4 - 1/2 a turn or so to allow sufficient water flow, which must equate to a lifting of less than 1mm of the valve off its seat - but more probably something like 0.5mm. It therefore figures that a Valencia valve should be adjusted similarly if it's to perform the same function as a lockshield valve.
                              Depends on the lockshield valve design I guess, but I typically find that those that need closing down a bit are set to around 1 turn out of 3 turns. If you're having to set them to 1/4 of a turn chances are the pump speed is too high! Compensating for a pump speed that is too high with most of the lockshields being closed right down will only lead to a large flow through the ABV...
                              This means the HR92 would only have a very small range of movement to fulfill its task of regulating the flow of water through the radiator, so rendering the majority of the upper part of its stroke redundant.
                              Which is precisely why I chose not to use the balancing insert but to balance using the lockshield valve I'm perfectly happy to count the turns on the lockshield if I'm removing a radiator and put it back where it was.

                              Like you I was concerned about the effective pin operating range of the HR92 being significantly truncated, causing a lot of deadband at the open end of its range. Not necessarily a huge problem with a mechanical TRV, but with an HR92 you have the added complication of the heat demand signal being sent to the controller which is based on a fixed relationship with the pin position. If the integrated balancer is screwed down too far then it could easily be that it already hits the balancer limit stop before it starts calling for heat!

                              On the contrary, the useful operating range of the HR92 pin movement should be maximised to give the best temperature control, which means winding the internal balancer mostly out (so that it's only acting as a bush to steady the pin, it can't be removed completely as it's needed as a bush) and balancing via lockshield, which is what I've done.

                              Regarding the discussion of shims earlier, I did some testing with an unused valve body and an unused HR92 to see how it calibrates in both stroke 0 and stroke 1 mode with the base unscrewed by different amounts to simulate different shim thicknesses.

                              And unfortunately the conclusion I reached is that they didn't really help with the calibration of the opening point relative to heat demand. The only benefit from using a shim on the order of 1mm seemed to be that in stroke 1 mode you could get the valve to open about 1mm further with a shim, however the calibration of at what reported pin position the valve started to flow didn't significantly change as the HR92 just adapted to the offset during the calibration process.

                              The only way to change this I found is to choose stroke 1 mode, which affects the operating range of the motor and therefore the scaling of the reported pin position.

                              In stroke 0 mode the valve doesn't start to allow water flow until about 55-75% indicated, but as it starts calling for heat from the boiler >30% this means if you use stroke 0 mode, as a room's temperature slowly drops below the set point it will start firing up the boiler long before the radiator gets any water flow, so you're just heating up your ABV loop if no other zones need heat...

                              On the other hand stroke 1 mode seems to calibrate such that water starts to flow at around 25% indicated - just before it starts calling for heat, so that by the time it starts calling for heat from the boiler the radiator is already able to flow slightly and start to warm up.

                              If another zone is calling for significantly more heat, 25% to close is not so low that it can't make a small correction in the closing direction to stop the flow, thus avoiding overshoots in a zone with a small heat demand if another zone comes online with a high heat demand.

                              This was a big problem for us before in the living room with our old sticky valve as in early evening the living room is the only zone at a high temperature (most others set back significantly) then the bedroom radiator for our son would come on full blast to warm his room changing the boiler duty cycle to 100% for a while, which would then cause a big overshoot in the living room of 1-1.5 degrees as the HR92 had to move a long way from the previous equilibrium to close the valve.

                              No sign of this sort of this early evening overshoot now and temperature control of the living room is excellent without any oscillations:



                              As well as the calibration of the opening point, stroke 0 also suffers from not opening the valve far enough, IMO. With the balancer screwed out (as shown in my photo) the valve has something like 4mm of travel off the seat - with the HR92 in stroke 0 mode it only lifts the valve about 1mm off its seat when at 100%, or about 1/4 of the potential valve opening....

                              In stroke 1 mode it's lifting it a bit more than 2mm off the seat, or about half the possible travel - still not as much as I'd like but a lot better. This is partly because there is a lot of compression in the rubber seal in the plunger that causes lost travel of the plunger lifting from the seat, as the first part of the travel is the rubber decompressing. (The bulldog valve seemed to have a harder rubber seal that didn't decompress as much)

                              I have a couple of radiators that need maximum possible flow in winter so I have no choice but to use stroke 1 mode to get as much opening as I can. It remains to be seen whether this 2mm lift above the seat is enough. In it's favour, the Valencia has a much bigger diameter hole in the side port than the bulldog valve, (I'm baffled as to why the bulldog has a very restrictive hole) also it has a much larger, tapered valve seat compared to the small diameter flat seat on the bulldog valve, so for a given valve seat gap it probably has a lot less flow resistance compared to the bulldog valve. (It's certainly a lot quieter)

                              So I'll just have to see how it performs in the depths of winter. If it needs more opening a 1mm shim together with stroke 1 mode should help.

                              So after all this testing my conclusions about the HR92 / Valencia combination are:

                              1) Shims don't help with the heat demand/valve flow calibration issue at all, but a shim of about 1mm could increase maximum valve opening somewhat used in combination with stroke 1 mode if you really need every last bit of flow for your radiator. A shim of significantly more than 1mm will prevent the valve closing properly so this is about the maximum thickness shim you could use.

                              2) Don't use the internal balancer - wind it most of the way out so that it is not restricting pin travel at all. It should be wound in just enough for the threads to catch so it can act as a support bush. Let the HR92 base itself be the pin limit stop.

                              3) Stroke 0 mode is almost unusable IMO. It calibrates the heat demand/valve opening relationship completely wrong, (possibly due to the soft rubber washer) resulting in calls for heat when the radiator can't flow, (wasted gas) severely restricting the maximum possible valve opening and therefore flow, (insufficient heat to the radiator) and compressing the entire effective operating range into the top end of the pin travel. (Poor temperature regulation)

                              On an Opentherm system it would also result in high flow temperatures even when the true need for heat is quite small, as the radiator wont even flow at all until the call for flow temperature is very high. This could explain some people seeing high opentherm temperatures all the time and the overshoots that may result from that. Even on a BDR91 you're going to see high duty cycles when it is not necessary.

                              Stroke 1 mode seems to work quite nicely with the Valencia - it opens the valve as much as possible when needed, (short of adding a shim) calibrates the opening point vs heat demand quite well, and so this is what I would recommend. I'm using stroke 1 on all radiators, and overall I'm happy with how they're performing in this mode after very disappointing first impressions in stroke 0 mode. I guess I'll just have to suck up the increased battery drain in the interests of actually having the system working properly...

                              If you have an HR90 then my advice would be don't use a Valencia, as there is no way to adjust the stroke setting and it's default is similar to stroke 0 on an HR92...
                              Last edited by DBMandrake; 24 September 2018, 11:19 AM.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X