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Thread: Mass communication loss overnight?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jemster View Post
    UPDATE:
    I cleared all the overrides then went into the Living Room and saw that the DT92 was ‘off’ (no display). I popped a battery and put it back in and it re-synced.
    Evohome is notorious for poor battery connections. You need to re-tension the battery contacts. The contacts are (probably, in my opinion) made of chrome plated mild steel rather than using proper spring steel normally used for spiral battery terminals so over time they lose their tension and become intermittent.

    Every single one of my HR92's has needed to have this done over the last 3 years because they became intermittent. Some have needed it done twice! My CS92A has needed it done, and so has one of my DTS92's which like yours decided to go blank one day even though the batteries were fine.
    What is really puzzling me is where these overrides are coming from. They have the clock symbol in the UI so aren’t coming from the phone app, they obviously aren’t coming from multiple hr92s simultaneously so how are they getting set???
    One possibility is the so called "phantom override" issue. Check for other threads about this, me and a few others have discussed this problem a few times. In essence it can cause the set point to be reverted to the previous set point. The workaround (there is no true fix) is to reboot all the HR92's in the affected zones preferably at random times in the hour, as the problem occurs when the bootup time of the HR92 within an hour clashes with set point changes.
    Got to be either the controller, or that DT92 that goes off on its own... maybe...
    The DTS92 going off is a fault but wouldn't cause all your other issues, and certainly wouldn't affect other zones.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jemster View Post
    I've exported all my data from Domoticz and here's a timeline of what happened...
    At about 11pm all the radiators go back down to 10 degrees on their schedule and at this stage everything was running normally.

    23:20 Bedroom 3 - Set point unexpectedly goes up to 20 degrees
    23:25 TV Room - Set point unexpectedly jumps to 20.5 degrees
    23:45 Living Room - Set point unexpectedly goes up to 20.5 degrees
    23:50 Computer Room - Set point mysteriously goes up to 20 degrees
    00:30 TV Room - Set point drops to 20 degrees (!?!??!)
    00:50 Living Room - Set point drops to 20 degrees (!?! like... why???? I can kind of understand a random override but this indicates more than 1 override happened)
    01:25 Bedroom 2 - Stopped reporting temperature (This is the one I got the fault message for)
    01:30 TV Room - Stopped reporting temperature
    01:40 Bedroom 1 - Set point goes up to 20 degrees
    20 degrees is the default set point for an HR92 when it boots up. If you reboot an HR92 by removing the batteries and reinserting them it will jump to 20C. This will be registered by the controller as a local override (clock icon) as if the user had turned the HR92's dial to 20.

    HR92's are very prone to random spontaneous reboots when the battery contacts start to lose their tension. You can see where I'm going with this...if an HR92 spontaneously reboots in the night you'll end up with a 20C override until your next set point in the morning. It's happened to me a few times.
    02:45 I arrived in and cleared faults and overrides...

    02:45 Computer Room - Set point goes back to 10 degrees when I cleared override
    Bedroom 1 - Set point goes back to 10 degrees when I cleared override
    Living Room - Set point goes back to 10 degrees when I cleared override
    Bedroom 3 - Set point goes back to 10 degrees when I cleared override
    TV Room - Set point goes back to 10 degrees when I cleared override

    02:50 Computer Room - Set point magically goes back to 20 degrees
    That sounds like either the Phantom override problem (which causes a revert to the previous set point) or an HR92 in the zone rebooted again - which would revert to 20C. Low battery/poor contact tension can cause spontaneous reboots when the motor tries to turn, especially if it turns all the way to the limit stop as that causes a sudden large current drain.

    Bedroom 2 - Restored temperature readings
    02:55 Computer Room - Set point goes back to 10 degrees when I cleared override for a 2nd time
    03:10 TV Room - Starts reporting temperature again (I did a battery reset of DT92 about 15 minutes earlier)

    03:20 Bedroom 3 - Set point went back up to 20 degrees!
    03:20 TV Room - Set point went back up to 20 degrees!
    03:45 Bedroom 1 - Set point went back up to 20 degrees!
    Ditto.

    Right now, re-reading this, I am having trouble not over-reacting to what I think of EvoHome and 'fit for purpose'. This is not a simple case of interference. This is total system collapse. Bear in mind that while this was going on, 3 other zones Plus the hot water were functioning normally.

    Please... Anybody... any ideas or theories??
    I would check the status of the batteries in all your DTS92's and HR92's and then re-tension their contacts, and make sure all HR92's/DTS92 have been rebooted and then finally reboot the controller itself.

    The way I test the battery tension on the HR92 is simple but effective - remove the HR92 from it's base, hold it vertically in one hand, hold your other palm open facing up about 6" below the HR92 then bring the HR92 down with a medium force downwards "thump" into your palm. If there is any trouble with the battery contact tension the HR92 will spontaneously reboot. Often you'll find the slightest bump will reboot it and you'll wonder how it ever worked...

    To tension the contacts you'll need a small flat jewellers screwdriver or similar to bend up the middle prong of the two bottom contacts by pushing the screw driver up through the base. Bend it up a couple of millimetres. Sometimes the little shorting bar at the top needs to be bent slightly as well, (it does a really poor job and is as soft as butter) and it's helpful to fit the two security screws as that helps to hold it down as normally it relies on the pathetic clip in the middle of the bar.

    See how you go after that. Might just be a combination of many of the HR92's batteries starting to get low (but not low enough to show a fault log entry) and many of them starting to lose contact tension.
    Last edited by DBMandrake; 28th April 2019 at 11:11 PM.

  2. #12
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    DBMandrake - invaluable advice as always...

    I believe all my batteries are strong (they are under 6 months old) but I will check. But the contacts, I’ve already had issues with 1 in the kitchen so it is possible. If a little disappointing given the amount spent on the system.

    BUT my one niggle here is How has this happened to 5 zones Almost simultaneously (no we haven’t had an earthquake ). If it was 1 messing about, fair enough, but can 1 bad connection ‘infect’ many other zones? And more than slightly coincidental that the dts92 turns off at the same time. No? Just too much coincidence for me.

    I’ll read up on the phantom override issue, maybe that explains the multiple-zone failure. Thanks for the pointer!

  3. #13
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    All batteries reporting 2/3 bars. All signal strengths are full and all pass the bash-on-hand test. The mystery continues...

    Also, doesnít the system round-robin every few minutes and send out the zone temperatures? I didnít think it waited until the next set change?

  4. #14
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    Ahhh. Wow. Just been reading phantom override. Will reset it tomorrow avoiding the hour and half hours. What a crazy bug!

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jemster View Post
    All batteries reporting 2/3 bars. All signal strengths are full and all pass the bash-on-hand test. The mystery continues...
    Hmm..
    Also, doesn’t the system round-robin every few minutes and send out the zone temperatures? I didn’t think it waited until the next set change?
    No, the controller only sends set point changes to HR92's when there is a change in set point. Additionally identical set points in a row do not send out redundant set point changes.

    So if you have 5C at 11pm and then 5C again at 2am (which I do on downstairs zones, to catch any after 11pm manual override I make if I'm staying up late) then the second one won't be sent unless a manual set point change occurred between the two to some other temperature.

    This not sending "redundant" set point changes also causes issues of it's own, if an HR92 set point override isn't registered by the controller properly it won't be cancelled. This is the case with a multi-room zone's - so if you have a multi-room zone with 5C at 11pm and 5C at 2am, and manually turn the HR92 up at midnight it will not be turned down to 5C again at 2am as the controller is not aware of the set point change and thinks there is nothing to revert! This can happen in single room zones occasionally if there are any minor loss of comms. (The workaround is to alternate "duplicate" set points in the schedule slightly, like 5.5/5.0 so that it always considers there to be a change in set point that needs to be transmitted)
    Last edited by DBMandrake; 29th April 2019 at 11:56 AM.

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBMandrake View Post
    No, the controller only sends set point changes to HR92's when there is a change in set point. Additionally identical set points in a row do not send out redundant set point changes.

    So if you have 5C at 11pm and then 5C again at 2am (which I do on downstairs zones, to catch any after 11pm manual override I make if I'm staying up late) then the second one won't be sent unless a manual set point change occurred between the two to some other temperature.

    This not sending "redundant" set point changes also causes issues of it's own, if an HR92 set point override isn't registered by the controller properly it won't be cancelled. This is the case with a multi-room zone's - so if you have a multi-room zone with 5C at 11pm and 5C at 2am, and manually turn the HR92 up at midnight it will not be turned down to 5C again at 2am as the controller is not aware of the set point change and thinks there is nothing to revert! This can happen in single room zones occasionally if there are any minor loss of comms. (The workaround is to alternate "duplicate" set points in the schedule slightly, like 5.5/5.0 so that it always considers there to be a change in set point that needs to be transmitted)
    Interesting - I was under the impression the system did a round-robin to bring everything into sync, thus any communication failure on a single update didn't matter because it would get re-sync'd on the next update. Also, if I reboot an HR92, I thought it picked up the correct set point a few minutes afterwards...

    My symptom doesn't quite match up with the Set-Point change 'window of opportunity' as that would only be a few minutes discrepancy, but I've just noticed the switch-back jumps seem to be about an hour after the Set-Point change. I hadn't noticed that before. The hour must be significant in some way to this issue.

    I'm trying to see if the first overrides align with my scheduled setup BUT really helpfully it looks like Honeywell are having problems with the app and I can't get logged in at the moment. Think they are trying to rub salt in the wound...

  7. #17
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    Ok, App is back. Breaking this down per-room... and given the granularity of the samples is no better than every 5 minutes:


    TV Room is set to go from 20.5 -> 10.0 @ 22:30. It returned to 20.5 at 23:25, and at 00:30 it went to 20.0 (not a temperature anywhere on it's schedule) and then at 1:30 stopped reporting temperature. So that's an hour between each jump.

    Living Room is set to go from 20.5 -> 10.0 @ 23:00. It returned to 20.5 at 23:45 and at 00:50 it went to 20.0 (again, not anywhere on its schedule). So 45 minutes, then an hour.

    Bedroom 2 is set to go from 20.0 -> 10.0 @ 23:00. It gave up on temperature reports at 01:25. So that was 2.5 hours.

    Bedroom 1 is set to go from 19.0 -> 10.0 @ 23:00. It went to 20.0 @ 1:40 (no 20 degrees on it's schedule). After being reset @ 2:45 it bounced back to 20 again at 3:45... so there's a 2:40 followed by an hour

    Bedroom 3 is set to go from 20.0 -> 10.0 @ 23:00. It went to 20.0 @ 23:20. After 2:45 reset it bounced back to 20.0 at 3:20. Only coincidence I can see here are both were at 20-past-the-hour.


    Don't know what this shows. From the TV room, living room and bedroom 2, I thought I was on a half-hour problem. But Beds 1 and 3 look to be separate.


    Gawd why's it so tough to debug ... and still no ideas on how come one of my DTS92s went off for both incidents.

    How are Honeywell on consumer support via email? Thinking it would be easier to explain written down with my log spreadsheets than to try to do it over the phone.

  8. #18
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    Do you have anything that might be drowning out 868MHz in your house? Wireless speakers / headphones? Baby monitor? Wireless video doorbell?

    Something that streams continuously rather than a device like a weather station that only transmits in short bursts?

    (really clutching at straws here!)

    P.

  9. #19
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    How are you using domictz? Do you have an HGI80? You can log the actual messages in debug mode to see what happens over the air if you are so interested.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulockenden View Post
    Do you have anything that might be drowning out 868MHz in your house? Wireless speakers / headphones? Baby monitor? Wireless video doorbell?

    Something that streams continuously rather than a device like a weather station that only transmits in short bursts?

    (really clutching at straws here!)

    P.
    Nope, the only wireless devices we have (that I can think of) are:

    Loop - this is 868 MHz but others are using without issues and it's only a very minimal use of the spectrum so any collisions would be swiftly resolved
    Cordless BT phone - certainly wasn't in use at the time, but pretty sure it's DECT anyway

    No baby monitors or wireless speakers (beyond a Bluetooth speaker), no video doorbell...

    I appreciate the help with the straws. they're kinda hard to grab hold of.


    Quote Originally Posted by Jabes
    How are you using domictz? Do you have an HGI80? You can log the actual messages in debug mode to see what happens over the air if you are so interested.
    I don't have the HGI80 so it's the simpler form of integration, i.e. the one built in to Domoticz. I don't believe it gives me any more info than the set point and actual temperature.

    I could upload the Excel files I exported tonight somewhere if anybody's interested in seeing the fine grained detail of each zone...

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