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Thread: Evohome: living room getting warmer when warming other room!!??

  1. #1
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    Default Evohome: living room getting warmer when warming other room!!??

    I don't know what to do anymore...

    The Evohome system seems to be stupid, not able to control logically.

    Situation:
    Living room: SET: 19C, MEASURED: 19.5 VALVE % on touch display: 18%

    So I want to heat up my Study: the system is heating up the boiler.
    So far so good...


    BUT NOW the living room is also getting hotter because the HR92 does not close!
    touch display reading of living room valve remains on 18% (on HR92 valve position is 42%)

    Living room is heating up, 1 degree above SET temp of 19C and valve is not closing yet

    What is going on???

    I think I have had it with this system, I can return it until jan 31 unless someone has some suggestion??

    I do hope on some help, missing things I did not though of
    Thanks!


    DOMOTICZ SCREEN DUMP:

    here you see overshoot in STUDY when living room is heating AND overshoot in LIVING ROOM when study is heating up
    Last edited by wwjd1924; 22nd December 2019 at 01:36 PM. Reason: adding picture

  2. #2
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    This sounds like normal activity to me so I'm not sure why you are concerned. I currently have all my ground floor room temperatures set to 21 degrees. Once it has achieved that temperature in the early morning, most of the radiators are either slightly on, or off, and the circulating water temperature drops back to a lower temperature that is sufficient to keep the temperature at 21 degrees. Each room is differant and it depends on the outside temperature.

    If I increase one room to a higher temperature, then the boiler is activated and the water heats up as would be expected. That higher tempertaure water flows through all the other slightly open radiators heating them and the room slightly until they turn off fully and things have settled down again.. I would expect this to happen and have no issues with it at all. Am I wrong?

  3. #3
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    Thanks for explaining! This confirms what I observed.

    But the problem for me is that the 'slightly heating' of the rooms with no heating need is at least 1 degree. that is a lot (I think) and enough for my wife to complain.
    If I don't fix this I will be banned and spent the nights in the chicken coop and it's cold out there!!

    What I don't understand is this: the system 'knows' the boiler is heating up and the living room is already 0.5C over the set-point. Radiator valve is still somewhat OPEN
    WHY would the system not close the living room valve...?

    But if that is normal behaviour than I have to return to the old situation.

  4. #4
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    Isn't that just as bad if it did this? Your living room temperature would then drop and it would become cold? You can't have your cake and eat it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by wwjd1924 View Post
    I don't know what to do anymore...

    The Evohome system seems to be stupid, not able to control logically.

    Situation:
    Living room: SET: 19C, MEASURED: 19.5 VALVE % on touch display: 18%

    So I want to heat up my Study: the system is heating up the boiler.
    So far so good...

    BUT NOW the living room is also getting hotter because the HR92 does not close!
    touch display reading of living room valve remains on 18% (on HR92 valve position is 42%)

    Living room is heating up, 1 degree above SET temp of 19C and valve is not closing yet

    What is going on???
    How long have you had the system installed ? It has a "learning" process where it learns the characteristics of your radiator valve, radiators and room characteristics. This can take a few days to a week or so to adapt, so if you've only just installed it it will not yet be optimised for your system.

    Also, what is your flow temperature set to ? If it's set too high for the weather then some interaction between rooms in inevitable if the set point changes suddenly in a different room causing the boiler flow temperature to increase suddenly.

    When you say the temperature is overshooting by one degree are you sure the room temperature is actually overshooting by this much ? Are you going by the temperature reported on the Evohome, and if so are you using the HR92 as the sensor for the zone or a separate wall sensor ?

    Or are you measuring it separately with another thermostat ? If you're going by the reading on the Evohome and using the HR92 as the sensor then it's normal for the temperature reading to fluctuate a little bit as the reading is influenced by the heat directly from the radiator, however the true room temperature will not be varying nearly much.

    For example an HR92 reporting an overshoot of one degree as measured at the HR92 itself is typically a true room overshoot of only about 0.2 degrees.

    Quote Originally Posted by wwjd1924 View Post
    Thanks for explaining! This confirms what I observed.

    But the problem for me is that the 'slightly heating' of the rooms with no heating need is at least 1 degree. that is a lot (I think) and enough for my wife to complain.
    If I don't fix this I will be banned and spent the nights in the chicken coop and it's cold out there!!

    What I don't understand is this: the system 'knows' the boiler is heating up and the living room is already 0.5C over the set-point. Radiator valve is still somewhat OPEN
    WHY would the system not close the living room valve...?

    But if that is normal behaviour than I have to return to the old situation.
    If the room needs some heat to maintain the required temperature then an HR92 will always be slightly open. If it closed completely the room would fall below the set point and need to be heated up again, causing continuous fluctuation of the temperature.

    If another zone suddenly switches on and causes the boiler flow temperature to increase a lot then the HR92 for this zone will be unaware of this. The first it will know is when the room temperature starts to overshoot slightly (usually 0.5 degrees or less) and at that time it will close the valve slightly to compensate.

    This is normal operation. If your flow temperature is excessively high or your radiators are very large you might get one degree or more overshoot - in those conditions consider reducing your boiler flow temperature a bit. A lot of people run their boiler unnecessarily hot year round and this will magnify both overshooting and interaction between rooms.
    Last edited by DBMandrake; 24th December 2019 at 08:50 PM.

  6. #6
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    Hi,
    what seems to be general opinion, which I have read and noticed by monitoring the data that I log on the system. The Valves will operate/stay open up to Set point plus 1.5'C, so whether the boiler relay is on or off the HR92/80 will be open up to 100% if valve temperature is below set point +1.5'C.

    If you only have one zone demanding heat. You will find that temperature control is excellent, and setpoint will be maintained very well.

    If a second zone then demands heat this is when you can get overshoot.

    Because the second zone is demanding heat the boiler relay stays on until the second zone is at temperature then shuts off and goes into a on off cycle as per your touch screen hourly timing cycle 3/6/9/12 etc.

    Your first zone will not close until set point +1.5'C is reached. It will proportionally close up to +1.5C.

    Once both zones are at Setpoint then they will both find there happy spot for valve open %, and temperature regulation should be excellent.

    If a third zone starts demanding then the overshoots can happen again.

    See a made up table below to give example of 1 zone working and then 2 zones.



    ROOM A ROOM B
    Boiler Relay Status Set Hr92 Temp Valve Position Set Hr92 Temp Valve Position
    Room A Needing Heat On 18 16 100 15 17 0
    Room A Needing Heat On 18 16.5 100 15 17 0
    Room A Needing Heat On 18 17 100 15 17 0
    Room A Needing Heat On 18 17.5 100 15 17 0
    Room A Needing Heat On/Off 18 18 50 15 17 0
    Room A Needing Heat On/Off 18 18 40 15 17 0
    Room A Needing Heat On/Off 18 18 33 15 17 0
    Room A Needing Heat On/Off 18 18 25 15 17 0
    Valve position changing to optimise for room Room has no heat demand so valve stays closed while Room A is working as need
    Room A & B Needing Heat On 18 18 25 20 17 100
    Room A & B Needing Heat On 18 18.5 15 20 17.5 100
    Room A & B Needing Heat On 18 19 8 20 18 100
    Overshoot Period stops at Set+1.5 = Valve Closed
    Room A & B Needing Heat On 18 19.5 0 20 18.5 100
    Room A & B Needing Heat On 18 19.5 0 20 19 100
    Room A & B Needing Heat On 18 19 0 20 19.5 100
    Room A & B Needing Heat On 18 18.5 0 20 20 100
    Room A & B Needing Heat On/Off 18 18 25 20 20 25
    Room A & B Needing Heat On/Off 18 18 22 20 20 20
    Room A & B Needing Heat On/Off 18 18 15 20 20 12
    Room A & B Needing Heat On/Off 18 18 7 20 20 8


    When you have multiple zones changing setpoints at different times you can get alot of overshoots that you can notice temperature that is not desired.

    This is the system, although not perfect, it is still pretty good and alot more comfortable in the house.

    I would prefer to have the Setpoint +1.5 to be variable to my choice. lets say +0.5'C. I do not know why honeywell do this. Maybe to maximise boiler heat efficiency. Maybe to minimise the valve movements for battery life. I'm not sure and it is the worst part about evohome to me and it is annoying when you get to 1.5C overshoot when it is a zone that makes it uncomfortable.

    Still the system is still excellent as whole and better than a load of mechanical TRVs and 1 Stat to manage them all.

    This has been posted about for 5-6 years and honeywell dudes have never really never acknowledge that it is pretty crap, or given a reason for why it is +1.5'C. Lots of irate users, this should be a easy fix but they do no fix. If its to save battery life. I would happily change batteries every year if I could have a smaller differential.

    Hope this helps

    Frank

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by frankmalia View Post
    Hi,
    what seems to be general opinion, which I have read and noticed by monitoring the data that I log on the system. The Valves will operate/stay open up to Set point plus 1.5'C, so whether the boiler relay is on or off the HR92/80 will be open up to 100% if valve temperature is below set point +1.5'C.

    If you only have one zone demanding heat. You will find that temperature control is excellent, and setpoint will be maintained very well.

    If a second zone then demands heat this is when you can get overshoot.

    Because the second zone is demanding heat the boiler relay stays on until the second zone is at temperature then shuts off and goes into a on off cycle as per your touch screen hourly timing cycle 3/6/9/12 etc.

    Your first zone will not close until set point +1.5'C is reached. It will proportionally close up to +1.5C.

    Once both zones are at Setpoint then they will both find there happy spot for valve open %, and temperature regulation should be excellent.

    If a third zone starts demanding then the overshoots can happen again.
    What you say is basically true (a large set point change in another zone can cause an overshoot in unrelated zones) however it is not as bad as you describe on most Evohome installations. On my system the overshoot is rarely more than 0.5C, (measured with an independent table top thermometer) so it's not true that because the proportional zone is +/- 1.5C that the overshoot will also necessarily be 1.5C.

    The radiator controller does not require the temperature to overshoot by 1.5C before it will fully close - it can also close inside the +/- 1.5C proportional band - this depends on the previously learnt characteristics of the room and ambient conditions. It depends how much heat the room requires to maintain the set point.

    If you get large overshoots (>0.5C) in a zone when another zone comes on it almost certainly means that either your flow temperature is too high, the radiators in the zones that are overshooting are oversized, or the valve bodies don't suit the HR92 and therefore the heat into the room is difficult to control accurately.

    This means that when the flow temperature suddenly increases due to the demands of another room the room heats up so quickly that the system doesn't get time to respond - remember HR92's only make an adjustment to their valve about once every 4 minutes. Within that 4 minute period if a large radiator heats up to a very high surface temperature then it can put a lot of heat into the room that will cause an overshoot even if the HR92 closed completely on the next 4 minute interval due to the large thermal mass of the radiator. This is the essence of the problem.

    Another possible issue relating to this is mismatching of radiators in different zones. The ideal situation is that to maintain a comfortable temperature in each zone that the required flow temperature is approximately the same. This would require larger radiators in large rooms and smaller radiators in small rooms etc..

    If radiators in some zones are oversized and those in other zones are undersized you have a situation where as soon as the zone with the undersized radiator calls for heat due to a schedule change it is going to demand a high (perhaps 100%) heat demand from the boiler which will then cause other zones to overshoot.

    One way to detect this problem is to set all rooms to a similar temperature like 20C and wait until they are all stable and then have a look at the heat demands for each zone in the installer menu - if they're wildly different then there could be a radiator sizing mismatch issue. It only takes one zone with an undersized radiator that struggles to reach the set point to cause issues.

    See a made up table below to give example of 1 zone working and then 2 zones.

    [...]

    When you have multiple zones changing setpoints at different times you can get alot of overshoots that you can notice temperature that is not desired.
    The table you show above shows a clear problem with your system that needs fixing - specifically the compatibility of your valve bodies that the HR92's are attached to.

    You show Room A stabalising at 18C with a valve position of 25%, then when Room B comes on the temperature of Room A starts rising and overshoots 1.5C. This should not happen.

    The HR92 is designed with the assumption that <= 30% valve pin position means the valve is closed. Below 30% valve pin position the HR92 will not call for any heat. Please see the following graph I created some time ago to show the relationship between HR92 valve positions and heat demand called for from the boiler:



    So if your valve still lets water through the radiator significantly below a position of 30% you will have the problems you describe. This is because when Room A was the only one calling for heat it reached equilibrium with the boiler not running (25% valve position calls for 0% heat demand) however the valve is still allowing water through.

    That means when Room B calls for heat Room A is allowing water to flow through the radiator so it will continue to heat up when it shouldn't.

    What kind of valve bodies do you have, and do you use Stroke 0 or Stroke 1 mode ? If you use the default Stroke 0 mode it might be worth switching your HR92's to Stroke 1 mode. After you do this, remove the HR92's, turn the black wheel anti-clockwise and refit them to trigger a valve pin recalibration.

    After this it will take maybe a day or two for the HR92's to learn the new characteristics in Stroke 1 mode. If you're still finding that the radiators keep flowing below 30% indicated pin position you might want to consider different valve bodies.

    This is the system, although not perfect, it is still pretty good and alot more comfortable in the house.

    I would prefer to have the Setpoint +1.5 to be variable to my choice. lets say +0.5'C. I do not know why honeywell do this. Maybe to maximise boiler heat efficiency. Maybe to minimise the valve movements for battery life. I'm not sure and it is the worst part about evohome to me and it is annoying when you get to 1.5C overshoot when it is a zone that makes it uncomfortable.
    I think you're misunderstanding what the proportional band is for. If you shrink the proportional band to only +/- 0.5C you will actually cause more overshoots, because as soon as the room went 0.5C under the set point the radiator would fully open which would almost certainly cause an overshoot in response. A wider proportional band would give smoother temperature control not a narrower band.

    Your comment about minimising movements for battery life makes me think you're confusing proportional band with deadband. There is virtually no deadband in the HR92. Even a measured temperature change of about 0.1C will result in a slight movement of the motor controlling the valve position.
    Still the system is still excellent as whole and better than a load of mechanical TRVs and 1 Stat to manage them all.

    This has been posted about for 5-6 years and honeywell dudes have never really never acknowledge that it is pretty crap, or given a reason for why it is +1.5'C. Lots of irate users, this should be a easy fix but they do no fix. If its to save battery life. I would happily change batteries every year if I could have a smaller differential.
    Sorry but I really think you're misunderstanding the situation. Some interaction between zones when schedules change is unavoidable with a system like this where the flow temperature is affected by all zone heat demands, however an overshoot of 1.5C is not normal, nor does the +/- 1.5C proportional band have anything to do with this, and making it smaller would be counter productive.

    In your case I'm fairly confident that the issue you're seeing will be one or more of flow temperature too high, oversized radiators or valve bodies whose opening threshold do not match what the HR92's expect.

    While an HR92 will fit any valve with an M30x1.5 thread that doesn't mean it will work well with all of them. I actually got rid of my old peggler bulldog valves as I was having the same problem you seem to be having - they were still allowing water to flow with a valve pin position as low as 12-15% and this was upsetting the control algorithms of Evohome (which expect water to stop flowing below 30%) and causing large temperature overshoots when other zones were scheduled on very similar to what you describe.

    I don't have that issue anymore now I'm using Honeywell Valencia valves, however as I reported in another thread I did find I have to use Stroke 1 to get the best control with them as they have a very long travel pin compared to some other valve bodies.
    Last edited by DBMandrake; 3rd January 2020 at 02:23 PM.

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    Hi DBMandrake,
    Thanks for the awesome reply.

    Yeah I trust what your saying, and just describing what I am seeing to try to help a bit.

    Yes sometimes the TRVs stay closed when another is heating, but 9 out of 10 time the open up to +1.5'C

    The 30% thing is interesting, As most of my if not all my radiatiors only close when 0% valve position on HR92.

    But I also have room with Honeywell Valencia TRV(brand new) The overshoots on the initial temperature setpoint change from low to higher setpoint is quite bad +2.5 sometimes, but ok when running at a constant setpoint.

    1.jpg

    I also have a room non honeywell TRV that is up and down all the time, this room I am looking at changing for Valencia TRV. As if your less than 30% should be closed then I have issues here.



    2.jpg

    Flow Temperature? Is this my boiler temperature or is it difference between input and output pipes of radiator? My boiler is 75'C at the moment, I turned it up week or so to try things, think it made it worse. I have dropped it to 65'C

    My system has been learning 2-3 months now.


    I agree that flow temperature too high, oversized radiators or valve bodies whose opening threshold do not match what the HR92's expect is the pro. I will be changing some valves eventually.

    I kinda cannot agree with the valve being open up to +1.5'C, that's not correct because valve only goes to zero at +1.5 90% of the time. But that 30% thing may be the issue. If you say less 30% valve thinks its closed. But if it thinks its closed, why would it drive down to 0% at +1.5'C, if it thought it was close. A smaller proportional window has got to be better on the plus side of the set point.

    Going to try the valve stroke setting on the my one valencia valve, as I thought would not need it setting

    Also trying to throttle some of the troublesome zones.

    I will keep you posted, and thanks for your input
    Last edited by frankmalia; 3rd January 2020 at 11:58 PM.

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    Checked the honeywell valencia trv and valve was 13% position and definetly passing water across it.

    Set valve stroke to Full 1 and disconnected TRV and Reconnected to calibrate again.

    So about the less than 30% being closed this one only closes fully at 0% I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by frankmalia View Post
    The 30% thing is interesting, As most of my if not all my radiatiors only close when 0% valve position on HR92.
    0% can't be right. To test this I would do the following:

    1) Turn down the zone on test to 2C below ambient and wait for the radiator panel to go cold.
    2) Turn up some other zone (not an adjacent room to avoid heat leakage through a doorway) ~3C above ambinet to cause a continous 100% heat demand from the boiler for the duration of the test
    2) Slowly increment the set point on the HR92 by 0.5C adjusting directly on the HR92, wait a couple of minutes each time to see if the radaitor gets warm if not, increase by another 0.5C and wait again etc.. at each step after you hear the motor finish turning go to setting 10 to see what the highest valve pin position is where it remains cold, and the lowest position is where the radiator starts to heat up. The threshold will be between these two points.

    Ideally the threshold should be between 25-35% for the system to work properly.

    If it's a long way from 30% you will see the following symptoms:

    >40% - heat demand may cause the boiler to cycle on when no radiators are getting hot, because the HR92 is calling for heat from the boiler but no water is flowing through the radiator.

    <20% - a room which is at equilibrium with a very low heat demand will overshoot in temperature when another zone triggers a high heat demand - what you are seeing.

    When you look at the graph in my previous post its easy to see that the HR92 assumes ~30% is the opening threshold of the valve - below that it doesn't call for heat, from about 30% to 70% the valve allows progressively more water flow and calls for more heat from the boiler (higher flow temperature) doubling the effect of the valve position since it affects both water flow and flow temperature, then from 70% to 100% it is assumed that the valve is flowing fully (turning a tap on the last couple of turns often doesn't make a change) so in this situation all the temperature modulation comes from the change in heat demand - hence why the slope from 70-100% is roughly twice as steep.

    It's a clever design when you think about it, given what the system has to work with. Keep in mind that the Stroke setting changes the way the valve pin position is calibrated, both the closing force and the amount of travel between closed and open, so the opening threshold in percent for the exact same valve can be very different in Stroke 0 and 1 modes, hence why it is worth trying both modes.

    I've taken lots of opening threshold measurements on my system both with my old Pegler Bulldog valves and again after replacing them with Honeywell Valencia valves, and they behaved totally different.

    When I first got the bulldog valves (actually they were in the system 6 months before Evohome was installed) it seemed to work OK in Stroke 0 mode, with no real issues however after about a year I started seeing a lot of overshoots when other rooms changed set point, exactly as you describe.

    It was particularly bad in the main bedroom - which is set to 16C overnight, and in winter has to run intermittently or even continously at a very low surface temperature to keep the room warm - in the morning when all the downstairs radiators are scheduled on the bedroom would then overshoot 2C or more - uncomfortable enough to wake us up as I'm quite sensitive to room temperature when sleeping. And yes, the Bedroom does have an oversized radiator, which exacerbates the problem.

    This is when I started investigating the problem in detail and looking at the valve pin position of the bedroom radiator during a temperature overshoot - and like you I found that the room was approx 1.5C over temperature and the radiator panel was still very hot and I could still hear flow through the radiator. This was occuring when the valve position reported was only 18% and it didn't completely close until it got to about 12%.

    As far as the HR92 is concerned 18% is a closed valve and it is not calling for any heat so it's job is done, however in response to the temperature continuing to exceed the set point it will eventually close the valve down to 0% but not until it's too late.

    I found that if I initated a recalibration of the valve (remove the HR92, turn the black wheel anti-clockwise, refit and let it cycle) that the calibration would change so that the valve closed at about 30% - and everything seemed fine, however a day or two later the calibration would be out again and it would not be closing until about 15% and the problem returned.

    In fact I noticed that if I manually cycled the valve through its full range of operation by setting the set point high and low and high again etc that every time it reached the two limits it would change the calibration slightly (it tweaks the calibration every time it reaches the limits if necessary) and with every cycle the calibration would go out and after only a few full cycles it was back to 15% again.

    After replacing the valves my opinion is that the valve bodies had deteriorated - I'm not entirely sure if they were seizing up, or whether the rubber gaskets had gone hard in response to flushing solution (or just age/poor quality rubber etc) but the pins were quite corroded inside after I removed them and did not move smoothly.

    I had the opposite issue with my Valencia valves where they wouldn't start flowing until an indicated 60% pin position which of course caused the boiler to cycle on without the radiator getting hot. Eventually I solved the issue by adjusting the balancing insert fully out (so it's just touching) and setting the HR92 to Stroke 1 mode, now they work very well and the threshold is very close to a reported 30%. In my opinion the integrated balancing insert should not be used with an HR92! Use the lockshield valve to balance instead...

    For the full details of that escapade, read the following longish thread!

    https://www.automatedhome.co.uk/vbul...encia-problems

    Flow Temperature? Is this my boiler temperature or is it difference between input and output pipes of radiator? My boiler is 75'C at the moment, I turned it up week or so to try things, think it made it worse. I have dropped it to 65'C

    My system has been learning 2-3 months now.
    At this time of year my flow temperature is 70C, however I have many old radiators that by todays standards are undersized, (non-convectors etc) mixed with modern convector radiators. If you have more modern radiators you might want to be running at a lower temperature. Easy way to tell - set the flow temperature lower than you think it should be, if any rooms can't make their set point at all or in a reasonable time, turn it up a bit!
    I kinda cannot agree with the valve being open up to +1.5'C, that's not correct because valve only goes to zero at +1.5 90% of the time. But that 30% thing may be the issue. If you say less 30% valve thinks its closed. But if it thinks its closed, why would it drive down to 0% at +1.5'C, if it thought it was close. A smaller proportional window has got to be better on the plus side of the set point.
    I know you're sceptical that other people don't see the huge overshoots you're reporting, so here is the last 24 hours of all of my zones with a little bit of commentary about what the zones themselves are like. A couple have overshoots but most do not:



    The bathroom radiator is a bit of a worst case scenario and is showing "overshoots" as much as 3C. However to keep this in perspective, the temperature is being measured on the HR92, which is right in the corner of the room behind the door hinge, so when the door is partly open the HR92 is blocked into a very small space and can't sense the room temperature correctly, the radiator typically has towels on it, sometimes covering the HR92, and there is the heat source of the shower/bath itself that often warms up the room. In short, I wouldn't expect any kind of accurate temperature regulation in these circumstances, at least without a remote wall thermostat, which isn't justified for a bathroom.



    The kitchen radiator is also a bit of a worst case scenario - the radiator is mounted under a counter top flanked immediately by kitchen cabinets, thus the HR92 sensing the temperature is right in the corner of this recess and can't sense the room temperature properly. Overshoots of 1-2C occur, at least as measured at the HR92 - it's doubtful the true room temperature is overshooting this much. I'm also confident that if I fitted a remote wall thermostat to the room the temperature control would be good without overshoot. I haven't done so mainly for lack of a good available wall surface to mount it on that isn't directly over a heat source.



    The hallway has a fairly large (for a hallway) panel and the Evotouch itself is the temperature sensor for the zone on a wall mount on the opposing wall. Temperature control here is excellent with no overshoot, however the room itself sometimes does overshoot if doors are left open from warmer rooms, as can be seen in the above graph.

    Continued in next post due to post size limit...
    Last edited by DBMandrake; 4th January 2020 at 02:43 PM.

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