Evohome firmware 02.00.19.31 Beta Trial - Exclusive for Automated Home Members

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • DBMandrake
    Automated Home Legend
    • Sep 2014
    • 2361

    Originally posted by ally153 View Post
    Full load scaling is taking account of the outside temperature to provide more or less demand to the boiler to compensate for the heat loss of the building. It should provide more even heating between a cold morning going into a hot afternoon. In a well insulated building heat loss isn't a factor and trying to compensate for it can provide the opposite effect. Although initially both appear to behave quite differently, and partial will appear to provide less scaling than normal, I'd expect both to learn their new normal and adapt the boiler demand fairly similarly. If only a single zone is asking for heat, there won't be much in it, but if more of the house needs heat, there will be more of an impact on the total demand.
    So what you're saying is both scaling modes have heuristic learning for the characteristics of the zones which allow them to adapt over time, however full load scaling takes outside temperature into account when calculating scaling factors and partial mode doesn't use outside temperature as a factor ? That's nice to know if true.

    However this seems to be back to front from the description in the built in help which says (if I'm remembering it right - I'm not at home at the moment) full mode is recommended for well insulated houses. Above you've said that a well insulated house is probably better off not using outside temperature as a factor for scaling, which would seem to indicate use of partial mode not full mode ?

    Can you clarify whether the help has its recommendation back to front or am I missing something ?

    In the first beta I found full mode was too aggressive and even over time after it should have learnt it was hard to get low demand zones like the bathroom to heat up on their own. Now that manual overrides can override load scaling I might give full mode another try, however if going from partial to full mode will cause it to start taking the outside temperature into consideration and I am seeing 4-6 hour lag on the reported outside temperature, this might make things worse for me ?
    Last edited by DBMandrake; 8 September 2020, 11:38 AM.

    Comment

    • ally153
      Automated Home Jr Member
      • Nov 2014
      • 30

      Originally posted by DBMandrake View Post
      So what you're saying is both scaling modes have heuristic learning for the characteristics of the zones which allow them to adapt over time, however full load scaling takes outside temperature into account when calculating scaling factors and partial mode doesn't use outside temperature as a factor ? That's nice to know if true.

      However this seems to be back to front from the description in the built in help which says (if I'm remembering it right - I'm not at home at the moment) full mode is recommended for well insulated houses. Above you've said that a well insulated house is probably better off not using outside temperature as a factor for scaling, which would seem to indicate use of partial mode not full mode ?

      Can you clarify whether the help has its recommendation back to front or am I missing something ?

      In the first beta I found full mode was too aggressive and even over time after it should have learnt it was hard to get low demand zones like the bathroom to heat up on their own. Now that manual overrides can override load scaling I might give full mode another try, however if going from partial to full mode will cause it to start taking the outside temperature into consideration and I am seeing 4-6 hour lag on the reported outside temperature, this might make things worse for me ?
      The top option, which is marked NORMAL in the UI is load scaling with outside temperature compensation. We expect that most Evo sites will benefit from this to accommodate for the heat loss of typical properties. PARTIAL is load scaling WITHOUT outside temperature compensation and is recommended for highly insulated properties that don't exhibit much heat loss.

      Because your system has 'learnt' how to work with PARTIAL, I expect it will initially struggle when switching to NORMAL until it's re-learnt the room conditions. In terms of the outside temperature lag, it depends on how much of a difference you're seeing in the temperature. For example the difference between a 5C morning leading into a 10C afternoon could be around a 10% reduction in demand to the boiler. 5C going to 15C could be about double that reduction.

      I'm still trying to gather more information on the problem with some sites, which has been difficult as I'm dependant on other team's work loads and holidays, but hopefully I'll get some sort of update on the lags we're seeing soon.

      Comment

      • SteveP
        Automated Home Guru
        • Dec 2012
        • 190

        Originally posted by ally153 View Post
        The top option, which is marked NORMAL in the UI is load scaling with outside temperature compensation. We expect that most Evo sites will benefit from this to accommodate for the heat loss of typical properties. PARTIAL is load scaling WITHOUT outside temperature compensation and is recommended for highly insulated properties that don't exhibit much heat loss.

        Because your system has 'learnt' how to work with PARTIAL, I expect it will initially struggle when switching to NORMAL until it's re-learnt the room conditions. In terms of the outside temperature lag, it depends on how much of a difference you're seeing in the temperature. For example the difference between a 5C morning leading into a 10C afternoon could be around a 10% reduction in demand to the boiler. 5C going to 15C could be about double that reduction.

        I'm still trying to gather more information on the problem with some sites, which has been difficult as I'm dependant on other team's work loads and holidays, but hopefully I'll get some sort of update on the lags we're seeing soon.
        Like DBMandrake I could have sworn that the help said Normal was for well insulated houses, but have just looked and it says the opposite (Partial is for well insulated houses). I even looked at the original release slide deck and that also says Partial is for well insulated houses - duh !! So I have been using "the wrong way around" - lol. Ally153, thanks for the clarification. Though I do share the same concern as DBMandrake that unless the O/S temp feed can be a bit more reliable (doesn't have to be spot on but definitely no lag so correctly follows the temp "trend") it will surely cause some issues with Normal setting for load scaling. Hopefully your team will be able to shed some light soon before the real cold weather sets in

        Comment

        • DBMandrake
          Automated Home Legend
          • Sep 2014
          • 2361

          Originally posted by ally153 View Post
          The top option, which is marked NORMAL in the UI is load scaling with outside temperature compensation. We expect that most Evo sites will benefit from this to accommodate for the heat loss of typical properties. PARTIAL is load scaling WITHOUT outside temperature compensation and is recommended for highly insulated properties that don't exhibit much heat loss.
          Ok, got it, normal means outside temperature is taken into account and partial means it isn't. Just what us nerds want to know.

          I could have sworn Normal was called "Full" in the first Beta though, did the name of the setting change between beta's and perhaps the description text as well ? Because as Steve remarked it does now say that Partial is recommended for well insulated houses when I could have sworn the first beta said "Full" mode was recommended. In any case it is around the right way now.
          Because your system has 'learnt' how to work with PARTIAL, I expect it will initially struggle when switching to NORMAL until it's re-learnt the room conditions.
          Yes I expect that to be the case. I've switched it from Partial to Normal just before writing this post and will keep an eye on it to see what happens. Weather conditions are all over the place here lately, for some reason we're up to 19C and overcast tonight after a cold morning, so the weather will keep the system on its toes.

          In theory a properly adapted Normal mode should cope better with these weird swings in outdoor temperature than Partial mode, it will be interesting to see if this pans out. (Our house is not what you would call "well insulated" so is quite strongly affected by outside temperature especially when wet and windy)
          In terms of the outside temperature lag, it depends on how much of a difference you're seeing in the temperature. For example the difference between a 5C morning leading into a 10C afternoon could be around a 10% reduction in demand to the boiler. 5C going to 15C could be about double that reduction.
          Ok, so the effect of outside temperature on scaling is fairly modest then, in that case an error of a couple of degrees won't make much difference, unlike the cold weather boost function which is a threshold where it's either active or not. For cold weather boost an error in the reported outside temperature of a couple of degrees does make quite a lot of difference as it means the difference between a boost applying or not.

          4-6 hours lag is typically 2-3 degrees error during periods of temperature swings however in the summer with sunny days and cool clear nights I was seeing errors as great as 6 degrees due to the lag with it taking many hours to catch up after the true temperature had stabalised. At the moment its more like 2-3C lag due to the more mild weather conditions.
          Last edited by DBMandrake; 8 September 2020, 06:41 PM.

          Comment

          • DBMandrake
            Automated Home Legend
            • Sep 2014
            • 2361

            First really chilly morning this morning.

            6:30am:
            My outdoor weather station - 5.8C
            WeatherPro on iPhone (Meteogroup) - 5C
            iPhone built in weather app - 7C
            Accuweather - 9C
            Evotouch - 9C

            So in this particular instance it seems to be Accuweather which is feeding wrong data to the Evotouch, and WeatherPro is the most accurate, which is nearly always the case.

            I also note that WeatherPro reports 8C for Glasgow and Accuweather also reports 8C for Glasgow, making me wonder whether my local accuweather report (I'm 15 miles from Glasgow) is just an extrapolation of the Glasgow report and not sufficiently localised. This is something I've noticed with many weather services
            where they just feed me essentially a report for Glasgow even though they list my location specifically.

            Checking my weather stations history I see that it was 9C - at 3am... The measured temperature through the night was:

            12am - 10.3c
            1am - 9.0c
            2am - 9.9c
            3am - 9.2c
            4am - 7.1c
            5am - 6.4c
            6am - 6.1c
            6:30am - 5.8c

            So if lag is the cause of the error not a measurement error there is around 3 1/2 to 5 1/2 hours lag. Unfortunately I wont be home much longer to see if the Evotouch reading continues to fall as actual temperature starts rising (lag) or whether it stays the same. (In the time since I first checked this morning outside temperature has crept up to 6.2c)
            Last edited by DBMandrake; 10 September 2020, 07:05 AM.

            Comment

            • Ghostrider
              Automated Home Jr Member
              • Jan 2018
              • 31

              It Looks like mine has updated sometime today and now i have no central heating.

              Do i have to re pair the display to the boiler control box?

              Comment

              • DBMandrake
                Automated Home Legend
                • Sep 2014
                • 2361

                Originally posted by Ghostrider View Post
                It Looks like mine has updated sometime today and now i have no central heating.

                Do i have to re pair the display to the boiler control box?
                Can you give a bit better description of what symptoms you're seeing ?

                Pairing of devices shouldn't be lost due to a firmware update.

                Comment

                • ally153
                  Automated Home Jr Member
                  • Nov 2014
                  • 30

                  Originally posted by DBMandrake View Post
                  I could have sworn Normal was called "Full" in the first Beta though, did the name of the setting change between beta's and perhaps the description text as well ? Because as Steve remarked it does now say that Partial is recommended for well insulated houses when I could have sworn the first beta said "Full" mode was recommended. In any case it is around the right way now.
                  The forum chewed up my last post, so here we go again... Yes, you're right we changed the text of NORMAL to FULL. The advice the text gave should have been consistent between versions however. The text about when to select PARTIAL only appears when Evo has a valid outside temperature, so it's possible if you reached that screen before you got internet data that you only had an ENABLE/DISABLE option. Enabling would have done the same as selecting PARTIAL (being the version of load scaling that doesn't use weather data).

                  Originally posted by DBMandrake View Post
                  In theory a properly adapted Normal mode should cope better with these weird swings in outdoor temperature than Partial mode, it will be interesting to see if this pans out. (Our house is not what you would call "well insulated" so is quite strongly affected by outside temperature especially when wet and windy)
                  I'm on the same boat as you - FULL should be more reactive to day to day swings than our adaptive fuzzy logic, which adjusts over time to the seasons.

                  Originally posted by DBMandrake View Post
                  4-6 hours lag is typically 2-3 degrees error during periods of temperature swings however in the summer with sunny days and cool clear nights I was seeing errors as great as 6 degrees due to the lag with it taking many hours to catch up after the true temperature had stabalised. At the moment its more like 2-3C lag due to the more mild weather conditions.
                  2-3C shouldn't be too much of an issue, like you said, the OTC scale back is relatively modest. Also where the 'worst' of the error will be is during high demands, once your rooms are close to setpoint you're scaling back a % of an already low % demand.

                  Originally posted by Ghostrider View Post
                  It Looks like mine has updated sometime today and now i have no central heating.

                  Do i have to re pair the display to the boiler control box?
                  How is your system working now? If you're still having issues, feel free to PM me your MAC and I'll check for any issues. Right now 2.0.19.33 is not an automatic update and no new automatic update has been scheduled, so I wouldn't have expected anyone's system to have updated out of the blue unless it was manually pushed with new firmware.

                  Comment

                  • Ghostrider
                    Automated Home Jr Member
                    • Jan 2018
                    • 31

                    Originally posted by DBMandrake View Post
                    Can you give a bit better description of what symptoms you're seeing ?

                    Pairing of devices shouldn't be lost due to a firmware update.
                    When i went and checked at the boiler the box was flashing a red light in a sequence, I re paired it and it was fine.

                    Comment

                    • DBMandrake
                      Automated Home Legend
                      • Sep 2014
                      • 2361

                      Originally posted by Ghostrider View Post
                      When i went and checked at the boiler the box was flashing a red light in a sequence, I re paired it and it was fine.
                      Weird, but glad you got it fixed.

                      Comment

                      • DBMandrake
                        Automated Home Legend
                        • Sep 2014
                        • 2361

                        Another example of the outdoor temperature of the Evotouch being waaaaaay behind reality.

                        It was quite cold last night and is clear and sunny today. At 10am this morning my weather station is reporting 14.2 degrees and the Evotouch is still reporting 6 degrees...

                        To be fair, WeatherPro is reporting 8 degrees, (despite predicting 12 degrees at 10am in the hourly forecast, which is pretty close) the iOS weather app is reporting 11 degrees, accuweather is reporting 8 degrees.

                        According to my weather station here is the temperature change through the night:

                        12am - 9.1C
                        1am - 8.4C
                        2am - 7.6C
                        3am - 5.9C
                        4am - 7.0C
                        5am - 6.6C
                        6am - 6.9C
                        7am - 5.6C
                        8am - 6.0C
                        9am - 13.3C
                        10am - 14.1C

                        Just goes to show how quickly local conditions can change at sunrise and sunset and that internet weather services just can't keep up.

                        (And no its not direct sunlight affecting my sensor by 7 degrees as it is a shaded sensor which gets at most about 1-2C influence due to direct sunlight falling on the shade, so at worst it might be reporting up to 2C too high, so "real" temperature is at least 12C)
                        Last edited by DBMandrake; 19 September 2020, 10:19 AM.

                        Comment

                        • Scubajoe
                          Automated Home Sr Member
                          • Nov 2018
                          • 50

                          I have to agree, crisp night and fine sunny morning. The temperature is rising outside and my hall radiator is roasting!

                          Comment

                          • garymtitley
                            Automated Home Sr Member
                            • Feb 2019
                            • 59

                            Mine seems to be behaving at the moment,17 degrees on the Evotouch and the same being reported by Accu weather.

                            Comment

                            • ssb_tv
                              Automated Home Lurker
                              • Nov 2018
                              • 8

                              Hello,
                              I've been having some issues since the 19.33 update, most of my UFH is no longer demanding any heat (opentherm module). The UFH still demands heat for my Hallway, which uses the built in evotouch sensor, but the 4 other zones using the DTS92 and Y87RF do not. The HCC80R opens the actuators and starts the pump, but the demand screen will always say 0% and the boiler will not fire.

                              I've already tried resetting and rebinding all thermostats as well as the HCC80R but no avail. The HR91s and HR92s still operate and call for heat absolutely fine though. The last thing I've not done is fully reset the evotouch, but I am not keen to unless I absolutely have to.

                              Anyone had a similar issue? Thanks

                              Also, the evotouch weather has always been slightly innacurate for me, but it's only an issue on cold,sunny mornings when the temperature outside rises rapidly, as reported by others.

                              Comment

                              • kevinsmart
                                Automated Home Ninja
                                • Sep 2018
                                • 257

                                Originally posted by ssb_tv View Post
                                Hello,
                                I've been having some issues since the 19.33 update, most of my UFH is no longer demanding any heat (opentherm module). The UFH still demands heat for my Hallway, which uses the built in evotouch sensor, but the 4 other zones using the DTS92 and Y87RF do not. The HCC80R opens the actuators and starts the pump, but the demand screen will always say 0% and the boiler will not fire.

                                I've already tried resetting and rebinding all thermostats as well as the HCC80R but no avail. The HR91s and HR92s still operate and call for heat absolutely fine though. The last thing I've not done is fully reset the evotouch, but I am not keen to unless I absolutely have to.

                                Anyone had a similar issue? Thanks

                                Also, the evotouch weather has always been slightly innacurate for me, but it's only an issue on cold,sunny mornings when the temperature outside rises rapidly, as reported by others.
                                With older firmware, and OpenTherm, the boiler still used to fire if the aggregated demand was much less than 10%.

                                With the newer firmware it only seems to send a flow temperature above 10C to fire the boiler if the demand is at least 10%.

                                So I now have HR92s and HM80 UFH open even though the boiler is not heating.

                                I guess it is energy saving but it does mean zones within 0.5C of set point may not heat.
                                Last edited by kevinsmart; 20 September 2020, 11:02 AM.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X