Evohome firmware 02.00.19.31 Beta Trial - Exclusive for Automated Home Members

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  • kevinsmart
    Automated Home Ninja
    • Sep 2018
    • 257

    Another way to look at OpenTherm low load low/off control is that Evohome has no idea what the lowest flow setpoint is. It can read the Max CH water setpoint (which is often wrong e.g. Intergas always reads 90C) but there is no minimum reading.

    Furthermore, the boiler minimum supply temperature can be changed via boiler parameters (e.g. Intergas 10C-60C) and OT response (e.g. 0=Ignore OT demand if the setpoint for the flow temperature is below minimum, 1=Accept OT demand if the setpoint for the flow temperature is below the minimum).

    So I think Evohome may try to determine a working minimum setpoint that actually heats by monitoring the boiler water temperature reading, flame status.

    Theoretically if the minimum setpoint was high, or misconfigured to match the boiler's max CH flow temperature, I guess the behaviour becomes more like TPI with on/off periods to try to reduce the output.

    With my setup Evohome is running as low as 26C flow setpoint when it starts employing low/off control.
    Last edited by kevinsmart; 2 October 2020, 10:03 AM.

    Comment

    • Mid112
      Automated Home Jr Member
      • May 2019
      • 37

      Another way to look at OpenTherm low load low/off control is that Evohome has no idea what the lowest flow setpoint is. It can read the Max CH water setpoint (which is often wrong e.g. Intergas always reads 90C) but there is no minimum reading.

      So if the evohome doesnt know what is the Min CH on the boiler - why is this low load invoked at all?
      In my opinion it should only start demending for heat - when there is a proper heat demand from evohome - not to come on ever 10 min just for sake of it.
      if this is a opentherm technology "feature" - thats surley wrong - but i suspect we may need to live with it

      Do we know exactly when Low Load Control kicks in? At what % of evohome demand?

      Furthermore, the boiler minimum supply temperature can be changed via boiler parameters (e.g. Intergas 10C-60C) and OT response (e.g. 0=Ignore OT demand if the setpoint for the flow temperature is below minimum, 1=Accept OT demand if the setpoint for the flow temperature is below the minimum).

      In my opinion these settings are ignored when opentherm is in play. I have the boiler set to 0, with Parameter 56 set to 25C and the boiler still comes on with 25/26C - while according to settings anything below 30 should be ignored.

      Am I missing anything here.


      Please find attached intergas service settings for reference its in pdf

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      Last edited by Mid112; 2 October 2020, 11:34 AM.

      Comment

      • kevinsmart
        Automated Home Ninja
        • Sep 2018
        • 257

        Originally posted by Mid112 View Post
        Another way to look at OpenTherm low load low/off control is that Evohome has no idea what the lowest flow setpoint is. It can read the Max CH water setpoint (which is often wrong e.g. Intergas always reads 90C) but there is no minimum reading.

        So if the evohome doesnt know what is the Min CH on the boiler - why is this low load invoked at all?
        In my opinion it should only start demending for heat - when there is a proper heat demand from evohome - not to come on ever 10 min just for sake of it.
        if this is a opentherm technology "feature" - thats surley wrong - but i suspect we may need to live with it

        Do we know exactly when Low Load Control kicks in? At what % of evohome demand?

        Furthermore, the boiler minimum supply temperature can be changed via boiler parameters (e.g. Intergas 10C-60C) and OT response (e.g. 0=Ignore OT demand if the setpoint for the flow temperature is below minimum, 1=Accept OT demand if the setpoint for the flow temperature is below the minimum).

        In my opinion these settings are ignored when opentherm is in play. I have the boiler set to 0, with Parameter 56 set to 25C and the boiler still comes on with 25/26C - while according to settings anything below 30 should be ignored.

        Am I missing anything here.


        Please find attached intergas service settings for reference its in pdf

        https://gofile.io/d/1DR1sq
        That is the correct behaviour. You've set the minimum temperature for OT demand to 25C, so the minimum seen should be 25C and not any temperature less than this.

        I'll try to find out by monitoring my system what the aggregated demand is when low load control comes into play.

        Comment

        • Mid112
          Automated Home Jr Member
          • May 2019
          • 37

          If I set the boiler to allow Opentherm to go as low as 25C then set up parameter "Ignore OT demand if the setpoint for the flow temperature is below minimum" (30C)"
          The boiler comes on with 25/26C every couple of minutes - while according to the setting above anything below 30C should be ignored?

          How come it could be correct?

          Further to the 30C temperature setting - I think this parameter can be adjusted as well. If I set the temperature to ie ignore anything below 40C - boiler will come up with 40C every 10min - for 1 min or so any way. Tada...

          I mentioned previously that boilers' settings whether its on 0 or 1 - are ignored by evo/opentherm.

          Becouse when using O/T with evohome - the boiler will come on every 10 min for 1 min or so regardless of boiler settings.

          When people use BDR91 at least they can specify number of cycles per hour in the evohome menu. When using OpenTherm - we can only accept how it works - and its definetely not how people think it should work by jugding numerous post.

          What I can see - the boiler gives priority to Evohome/OT over most of the settings in the menu. I think only Min CH and Max CH can be adjusted on the boiler and they are above OT commands anything else by OT takes over the boiler setting.
          Last edited by Mid112; 2 October 2020, 01:08 PM.

          Comment

          • kevinsmart
            Automated Home Ninja
            • Sep 2018
            • 257

            Originally posted by Mid112 View Post
            How come it could be correct?

            If I set the boiler to allow Opentherm to go as low as 25C then set up parameter "Ignore OT demand if the setpoint for the flow temperature is below minimum" (30C) ?
            And the boiler comes on with 25/26C every couple of minutes - while according to the setting above anything below 30C should be ignored?

            Thats why I mentioned previously that boiler's setting whether its on 0 or 1 - are ignored by evo/opentherm. They only setting

            What I can see - the boiler gives priority to Evohome/OT over most of the settings in the menu. I think only Min CH and Max CH can be adjusted on the boiler and they are above OT commands.
            I think it is a mistake in the Xclusive's manual. If you look in other Intergas manuals, for instance my boiler, you'll see the following descriptions.

            Parameter E: Min. Supply temperature during OT demand
            Parameter E.: 0 = Ignore OT demand if the setpoint for the flow temperature (value send by controller) is below the value of par E
            1 = Accept OT demand if the setpoint for the flow temperature is below the value of par E.
            The setpoint for the flow temperature is the value of par. E



            So I think the reference to 30C in your parameter 057 is wrong, it should state the minimum is the value of parameter P056, which defaults to 30C. When you change P056, this is the minimum temperature for the P057 operation, consistent with other Intergas boilers.

            Comment

            • Mid112
              Automated Home Jr Member
              • May 2019
              • 37

              Thanks this would explain a bit.

              But i think parameter 0 does not work on xclusive at all as it never skips a cycle but responds with min flow.

              Does this work on older intergas boilers?

              Comment

              • ssb_tv
                Automated Home Lurker
                • Nov 2018
                • 8

                Originally posted by Andy the Minion View Post
                ssb_tv
                The HCE80 only reports the almagamated heat demand on its first zone so the Evo system overview has to show it there but it will be responding correctly Evo gives the heat the HCE asks for and the HCE gives it to the zone that requested it
                Regards AtM
                This is good to know, I put it back to UFH on the evotouch last week and it seems to be behaving as normal now without the bug. I am wondering if it had something to do with the warm weather saver function, since it is cooler outside now. With the HCC80 we have usually found that the zone is the one calling for demand on the summary screen, not the 1st zone, although as you said it does seem to amalgamate it, e.g. the boiler won't have any demand until there is a big enough difference between actual temp. and the set point, or multiple zones call for heat.
                Thanks,
                Saaj
                Evohome UFH demand.jpg

                Comment

                • kevinsmart
                  Automated Home Ninja
                  • Sep 2018
                  • 257

                  Hi Saaj,
                  Do you find that HCC80s in combination with OpenTherm works well?

                  The reason I ask is that I am moving house next month and expect to be installing this setup, probably 4 HCC80s, 1 per manifold.

                  Thanks!

                  Comment

                  • ssb_tv
                    Automated Home Lurker
                    • Nov 2018
                    • 8

                    Apart from the minor issue with the Beta, the HCC80 works well in conjunction with OpenTherm. I’ve been using it in this configuration for nearly two years now. If the UFH is only calling for heat it will fire the boiler nearer 40-50C mark which is good.

                    Comment

                    • AlexM2020
                      Automated Home Lurker
                      • Oct 2020
                      • 6

                      I seem to have ticked a box somewhere or somehow ended up with this beta firmware (I probably selected to beta test as an option at sign-up time) but the "no hot water if any zone is overridden" bug is a show stopper for me. Is there a way to revert to the last public release?

                      Comment

                      • ally153
                        Automated Home Jr Member
                        • Nov 2014
                        • 30

                        Originally posted by AlexM2020 View Post
                        I seem to have ticked a box somewhere or somehow ended up with this beta firmware (I probably selected to beta test as an option at sign-up time) but the "no hot water if any zone is overridden" bug is a show stopper for me. Is there a way to revert to the last public release?
                        Alex, can you confirm what version of the firmware you are running? This behaviour was corrected for the latest beta which is what will be the target of the next public release, so I suspect you have 2.0.19.31. It is possible to manually push older versions of firmware to devices, but generally it's not advisable as the new software has new parameters, if we 'downgraded' you, you would lose your configuration and have to re-configure your system due to the differences.

                        If you send me a private message with your MAC address for the unit, I can push the latest firmware to the device if required.

                        Comment

                        • AlexM2020
                          Automated Home Lurker
                          • Oct 2020
                          • 6

                          Originally posted by ally153 View Post
                          Alex, can you confirm what version of the firmware you are running? This behaviour was corrected for the latest beta which is what will be the target of the next public release, so I suspect you have 2.0.19.31. It is possible to manually push older versions of firmware to devices, but generally it's not advisable as the new software has new parameters, if we 'downgraded' you, you would lose your configuration and have to re-configure your system due to the differences.

                          If you send me a private message with your MAC address for the unit, I can push the latest firmware to the device if required.
                          Hello Ally, yes, version 2.0.19.31. I'll PM a message in a minute with the MAC address.
                          Thank you.

                          Comment

                          • DBMandrake
                            Automated Home Legend
                            • Sep 2014
                            • 2361

                            Originally posted by ally153 View Post
                            Unfortunately how the code is arranged, there is a system wide flag for Eco and a variable for the setpoint of each zone. This means the code has no knowledge of the setpoint before Eco was applied or what it should be after Eco is cancelled or times out. I'll have a look into this but any fix would be time/resource dependent.
                            I'd like to relate an observation I made yesterday about the inconsistency in the way manual overrides are applied.

                            If you set a manual override when cold weather boost is active and is boosting the temperature of a zone the manual override goes to the exact temperature you ask for without the cold weather boost offset added on top, and when you cancel the override it goes back to the previous cold weather boost offset temperature - just like you'd expect and want.

                            But Eco/Boost doesn't behave this way and as discussed the Eco/Boost offset is added on top of any manual override. This surely should be considered inconsistent UI design?
                            Please bear in mind that load scaling is a learning algorithm. It will learn how to control your environment correctly overtime. If a room sensor is manipulated in a way that doesn't match how the environment reacts, the results will look strange. We also implemented failsafe measures which looks for abnormalities in the heat up ramp based on historical learning. If we detect a room is taking abnormally long to heat up the failsafe will kick in and ask for more from the boiler.
                            I gave "Normal" load scaling mode another try on 19.33 over about 3 weeks which has included both very cold and mild weather, (a good test) but in the end I've had to go back to "Partial" mode again.

                            It worked OK with very cold outdoor temperatures in the 0-10 range but the load was scaled back excessively at warmer temperatures in the 10-15 range causing zones to persistently linger below their set points by about 0.5 to 1.0 degrees, unable to generate enough heat demand to reach their targets, or indeed sometimes even fire the boiler, even after plenty of time (a couple of weeks) to adapt.

                            "Normal" mode seems to over compensate for outdoor temperature changes - at least for my house, which is a surprise as it is not particularly well insulated which would seem to be what "Normal" mode targets. However the system seems to work quite well in "Partial" mode.

                            Comment

                            • ally153
                              Automated Home Jr Member
                              • Nov 2014
                              • 30

                              Originally posted by ssb_tv View Post
                              This is good to know, I put it back to UFH on the evotouch last week and it seems to be behaving as normal now without the bug. I am wondering if it had something to do with the warm weather saver function, since it is cooler outside now. With the HCC80 we have usually found that the zone is the one calling for demand on the summary screen, not the 1st zone, although as you said it does seem to amalgamate it, e.g. the boiler won't have any demand until there is a big enough difference between actual temp. and the set point, or multiple zones call for heat.
                              Thanks,
                              Saaj
                              [ATTACH=CONFIG]1607[/ATTACH]
                              Just catching up on posts! Like Andy has suggested, the HCE80 only sends the maximum demand to Evo, as opposed to the individual zone demands. This is usually the 1st Evo underfloor zone as it's generally the first underfloor zone bound with Evo, but could appear at a different position in the summary screen if zones have been re-ordered or deleted and then added again later. We have some ideas on how to get the summary screen to show a representative demand for the other underfloor zones for a later release, which will make this summary screen less confusing.

                              Originally posted by DBMandrake View Post
                              I'd like to relate an observation I made yesterday about the inconsistency in the way manual overrides are applied.

                              If you set a manual override when cold weather boost is active and is boosting the temperature of a zone the manual override goes to the exact temperature you ask for without the cold weather boost offset added on top, and when you cancel the override it goes back to the previous cold weather boost offset temperature - just like you'd expect and want.

                              But Eco/Boost doesn't behave this way and as discussed the Eco/Boost offset is added on top of any manual override. This surely should be considered inconsistent UI design?
                              It is, yes, during development we did find a bug with Eco and manual overrides. Due to time constraints we didn't have time to address this behaviour. I'm hoping that we'll have an oppertunity to re-visit this for a later release, but again it depends on timescale.

                              Originally posted by DBMandrake View Post
                              I gave "Normal" load scaling mode another try on 19.33 over about 3 weeks which has included both very cold and mild weather, (a good test) but in the end I've had to go back to "Partial" mode again.

                              It worked OK with very cold outdoor temperatures in the 0-10 range but the load was scaled back excessively at warmer temperatures in the 10-15 range causing zones to persistently linger below their set points by about 0.5 to 1.0 degrees, unable to generate enough heat demand to reach their targets, or indeed sometimes even fire the boiler, even after plenty of time (a couple of weeks) to adapt.

                              "Normal" mode seems to over compensate for outdoor temperature changes - at least for my house, which is a surprise as it is not particularly well insulated which would seem to be what "Normal" mode targets. However the system seems to work quite well in "Partial" mode.
                              Thanks for the feedback and giving NORMAL another go - sounds like there are still improvements to be made for this function. It's possible that during the warmer weather there wasn't enough of a temperature difference to trigger the adaption, but it looks like we could do with taking another look under the hood and see what fine tuning we can do at higher outside temperatures.

                              Comment

                              • SteveP
                                Automated Home Guru
                                • Dec 2012
                                • 190

                                Originally posted by ally153 View Post
                                Just catching up on posts! Like Andy has suggested, the HCE80 only sends the maximum demand to Evo, as opposed to the individual zone demands. This is usually the 1st Evo underfloor zone as it's generally the first underfloor zone bound with Evo, but could appear at a different position in the summary screen if zones have been re-ordered or deleted and then added again later. We have some ideas on how to get the summary screen to show a representative demand for the other underfloor zones for a later release, which will make this summary screen less confusing.



                                It is, yes, during development we did find a bug with Eco and manual overrides. Due to time constraints we didn't have time to address this behaviour. I'm hoping that we'll have an oppertunity to re-visit this for a later release, but again it depends on timescale.



                                Thanks for the feedback and giving NORMAL another go - sounds like there are still improvements to be made for this function. It's possible that during the warmer weather there wasn't enough of a temperature difference to trigger the adaption, but it looks like we could do with taking another look under the hood and see what fine tuning we can do at higher outside temperatures.
                                I wanted to add some feedback a couple of of days ago regarding load scaling but have been rather tied up. Having run with Normal mode (on the basis of previous posts regarding what is deemed "well insulated" as my house is timber frame and has heat recovery ventilation ) and I also set the boiler to 70c (as recommended by DBMandrake) and I have found the house much more "stable" temperature wise regardless of the outside temp. Normally I have to keep adjusting my boiler temp dependant upon outside temperature (as not opentherm) but this is the first year I haven't and can just leave it up high and am not getting the usual overshoots or under temp issues so getting a "thumbs up" from me.
                                Would still be nice to have some feedback on the outside temperature "black box" process ?

                                Comment

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