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Thread: Evohome firmware 02.00.19.31 Beta Trial - Exclusive for Automated Home Members

  1. #491
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    I've noticed a strange problem on two occasions (in a two-week period) since upgrading to the beta.

    A room's heating comes on at the scheduled time, except its temperature has mysteriously been set to 35 degrees (the max?), but the configured value is nowhere near this.

  2. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by bheading View Post
    I've noticed a strange problem on two occasions (in a two-week period) since upgrading to the beta.

    A room's heating comes on at the scheduled time, except its temperature has mysteriously been set to 35 degrees (the max?), but the configured value is nowhere near this.
    Are you on 19.31 or 19.33 ? (check with a very long press on the device info button in settings)

    This was a known bug in the first beta (19.31) but should be fixed in 19.33. At least it is for me as I was seeing this in the first beta too.

    By the way it won't actually overheat your zone, it will only show this during the optimal start period and will go back to normal by the scheduled time.

  3. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveP View Post
    Thanks DBMandrake, very helpful and clear explanation. Hopefully the issue with the lack of heat was a comms "blib" as I couldn't understand why the boiler relay was showing 100% and yet not engaging and yes the switching to partial mode would make sense that it did fire the relay as it resent the command. I'll have a bit more of a play and see what the partial vs normal mode does in terms of overshoot control and not having to keep adjusting the boiler output
    Looks like Mandrake beat me to the punch with this! It's always hard to tell exactly what went wrong, but I'd agree that the issue sounds most likely like a missed message. Toggling the demand or waiting up to 20 minutes would get the BDR out of this failure more. One thing about our relays is we don't re-start the cycle if the demand has changed by 25% or less. This was part of the issue with beta 1 with load scaling & overrides - even with a big change of setpoint, load scaling would often reduce the demand so much the boiler cycle wouldn't restart, so you'd need to wait for the next cycle, which could have been 9+ minutes away.

    Quote Originally Posted by DBMandrake View Post
    Yes, the normal and partial modes are a bit nebulous in their description in relation to insulation.
    Full load scaling is taking account of the outside temperature to provide more or less demand to the boiler to compensate for the heat loss of the building. It should provide more even heating between a cold morning going into a hot afternoon. In a well insulated building heat loss isn't a factor and trying to compensate for it can provide the opposite effect. Although initially both appear to behave quite differently, and partial will appear to provide less scaling than normal, I'd expect both to learn their new normal and adapt the boiler demand fairly similarly. If only a single zone is asking for heat, there won't be much in it, but if more of the house needs heat, there will be more of an impact on the total demand.

    Quote Originally Posted by DBMandrake View Post
    I've been watching mine a bit during the beta period and I haven't been able to work out what the learning period is or how quickly it adapts. I suspect that it increases the scaling factor on zones which have a tendency to overshoot.
    This one is difficult to quantify. Anytime there is a scheduled heatup period with a high average demand, the algorithm will try and learn. During summer months they may be few and far between, so not much learning will take place. The more scheduled heat-up periods you have per day, the more oppertunity there is to run. I'd say in general that in the colder months with a standard schedule it will take a week or two to have learnt the room.

    Quote Originally Posted by bheading View Post
    I've noticed a strange problem on two occasions (in a two-week period) since upgrading to the beta.

    A room's heating comes on at the scheduled time, except its temperature has mysteriously been set to 35 degrees (the max?), but the configured value is nowhere near this.
    Mandrake beat me to this one too - .19.33 should fix this, if you're not sure how to check versions, feel free to private message me with your MAC address and I can check and update your device if required.

  4. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBMandrake View Post
    Are you on 19.31 or 19.33 ? (check with a very long press on the device info button in settings)

    This was a known bug in the first beta (19.31) but should be fixed in 19.33. At least it is for me as I was seeing this in the first beta too.

    By the way it won't actually overheat your zone, it will only show this during the optimal start period and will go back to normal by the scheduled time.
    Yup, it is indeed on 19.31, and it was indeed occurring during the optimal start period of the zone. I'll wait for the next update!

  5. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by bheading View Post
    Yup, it is indeed on 19.31, and it was indeed occurring during the optimal start period of the zone. I'll wait for the next update!
    If you send me a private message with your MAC address I can push the latest firmware to your device. The changes in the latest software can be found here:
    https://www.automatedhome.co.uk/vbul...ll=1#post42920

  6. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by ally153 View Post
    Full load scaling is taking account of the outside temperature to provide more or less demand to the boiler to compensate for the heat loss of the building. It should provide more even heating between a cold morning going into a hot afternoon. In a well insulated building heat loss isn't a factor and trying to compensate for it can provide the opposite effect. Although initially both appear to behave quite differently, and partial will appear to provide less scaling than normal, I'd expect both to learn their new normal and adapt the boiler demand fairly similarly. If only a single zone is asking for heat, there won't be much in it, but if more of the house needs heat, there will be more of an impact on the total demand.
    So what you're saying is both scaling modes have heuristic learning for the characteristics of the zones which allow them to adapt over time, however full load scaling takes outside temperature into account when calculating scaling factors and partial mode doesn't use outside temperature as a factor ? That's nice to know if true.

    However this seems to be back to front from the description in the built in help which says (if I'm remembering it right - I'm not at home at the moment) full mode is recommended for well insulated houses. Above you've said that a well insulated house is probably better off not using outside temperature as a factor for scaling, which would seem to indicate use of partial mode not full mode ?

    Can you clarify whether the help has its recommendation back to front or am I missing something ?

    In the first beta I found full mode was too aggressive and even over time after it should have learnt it was hard to get low demand zones like the bathroom to heat up on their own. Now that manual overrides can override load scaling I might give full mode another try, however if going from partial to full mode will cause it to start taking the outside temperature into consideration and I am seeing 4-6 hour lag on the reported outside temperature, this might make things worse for me ?
    Last edited by DBMandrake; 8th September 2020 at 12:38 PM.

  7. #497
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    Quote Originally Posted by DBMandrake View Post
    So what you're saying is both scaling modes have heuristic learning for the characteristics of the zones which allow them to adapt over time, however full load scaling takes outside temperature into account when calculating scaling factors and partial mode doesn't use outside temperature as a factor ? That's nice to know if true.

    However this seems to be back to front from the description in the built in help which says (if I'm remembering it right - I'm not at home at the moment) full mode is recommended for well insulated houses. Above you've said that a well insulated house is probably better off not using outside temperature as a factor for scaling, which would seem to indicate use of partial mode not full mode ?

    Can you clarify whether the help has its recommendation back to front or am I missing something ?

    In the first beta I found full mode was too aggressive and even over time after it should have learnt it was hard to get low demand zones like the bathroom to heat up on their own. Now that manual overrides can override load scaling I might give full mode another try, however if going from partial to full mode will cause it to start taking the outside temperature into consideration and I am seeing 4-6 hour lag on the reported outside temperature, this might make things worse for me ?
    The top option, which is marked NORMAL in the UI is load scaling with outside temperature compensation. We expect that most Evo sites will benefit from this to accommodate for the heat loss of typical properties. PARTIAL is load scaling WITHOUT outside temperature compensation and is recommended for highly insulated properties that don't exhibit much heat loss.

    Because your system has 'learnt' how to work with PARTIAL, I expect it will initially struggle when switching to NORMAL until it's re-learnt the room conditions. In terms of the outside temperature lag, it depends on how much of a difference you're seeing in the temperature. For example the difference between a 5C morning leading into a 10C afternoon could be around a 10% reduction in demand to the boiler. 5C going to 15C could be about double that reduction.

    I'm still trying to gather more information on the problem with some sites, which has been difficult as I'm dependant on other team's work loads and holidays, but hopefully I'll get some sort of update on the lags we're seeing soon.

  8. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by ally153 View Post
    The top option, which is marked NORMAL in the UI is load scaling with outside temperature compensation. We expect that most Evo sites will benefit from this to accommodate for the heat loss of typical properties. PARTIAL is load scaling WITHOUT outside temperature compensation and is recommended for highly insulated properties that don't exhibit much heat loss.

    Because your system has 'learnt' how to work with PARTIAL, I expect it will initially struggle when switching to NORMAL until it's re-learnt the room conditions. In terms of the outside temperature lag, it depends on how much of a difference you're seeing in the temperature. For example the difference between a 5C morning leading into a 10C afternoon could be around a 10% reduction in demand to the boiler. 5C going to 15C could be about double that reduction.

    I'm still trying to gather more information on the problem with some sites, which has been difficult as I'm dependant on other team's work loads and holidays, but hopefully I'll get some sort of update on the lags we're seeing soon.
    Like DBMandrake I could have sworn that the help said Normal was for well insulated houses, but have just looked and it says the opposite (Partial is for well insulated houses). I even looked at the original release slide deck and that also says Partial is for well insulated houses - duh !! So I have been using "the wrong way around" - lol. Ally153, thanks for the clarification. Though I do share the same concern as DBMandrake that unless the O/S temp feed can be a bit more reliable (doesn't have to be spot on but definitely no lag so correctly follows the temp "trend") it will surely cause some issues with Normal setting for load scaling. Hopefully your team will be able to shed some light soon before the real cold weather sets in

  9. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by ally153 View Post
    The top option, which is marked NORMAL in the UI is load scaling with outside temperature compensation. We expect that most Evo sites will benefit from this to accommodate for the heat loss of typical properties. PARTIAL is load scaling WITHOUT outside temperature compensation and is recommended for highly insulated properties that don't exhibit much heat loss.
    Ok, got it, normal means outside temperature is taken into account and partial means it isn't. Just what us nerds want to know.

    I could have sworn Normal was called "Full" in the first Beta though, did the name of the setting change between beta's and perhaps the description text as well ? Because as Steve remarked it does now say that Partial is recommended for well insulated houses when I could have sworn the first beta said "Full" mode was recommended. In any case it is around the right way now.
    Because your system has 'learnt' how to work with PARTIAL, I expect it will initially struggle when switching to NORMAL until it's re-learnt the room conditions.
    Yes I expect that to be the case. I've switched it from Partial to Normal just before writing this post and will keep an eye on it to see what happens. Weather conditions are all over the place here lately, for some reason we're up to 19C and overcast tonight after a cold morning, so the weather will keep the system on its toes.

    In theory a properly adapted Normal mode should cope better with these weird swings in outdoor temperature than Partial mode, it will be interesting to see if this pans out. (Our house is not what you would call "well insulated" so is quite strongly affected by outside temperature especially when wet and windy)
    In terms of the outside temperature lag, it depends on how much of a difference you're seeing in the temperature. For example the difference between a 5C morning leading into a 10C afternoon could be around a 10% reduction in demand to the boiler. 5C going to 15C could be about double that reduction.
    Ok, so the effect of outside temperature on scaling is fairly modest then, in that case an error of a couple of degrees won't make much difference, unlike the cold weather boost function which is a threshold where it's either active or not. For cold weather boost an error in the reported outside temperature of a couple of degrees does make quite a lot of difference as it means the difference between a boost applying or not.

    4-6 hours lag is typically 2-3 degrees error during periods of temperature swings however in the summer with sunny days and cool clear nights I was seeing errors as great as 6 degrees due to the lag with it taking many hours to catch up after the true temperature had stabalised. At the moment its more like 2-3C lag due to the more mild weather conditions.
    Last edited by DBMandrake; 8th September 2020 at 07:41 PM.

  10. #500
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    First really chilly morning this morning.

    6:30am:
    My outdoor weather station - 5.8C
    WeatherPro on iPhone (Meteogroup) - 5C
    iPhone built in weather app - 7C
    Accuweather - 9C
    Evotouch - 9C

    So in this particular instance it seems to be Accuweather which is feeding wrong data to the Evotouch, and WeatherPro is the most accurate, which is nearly always the case.

    I also note that WeatherPro reports 8C for Glasgow and Accuweather also reports 8C for Glasgow, making me wonder whether my local accuweather report (I'm 15 miles from Glasgow) is just an extrapolation of the Glasgow report and not sufficiently localised. This is something I've noticed with many weather services
    where they just feed me essentially a report for Glasgow even though they list my location specifically.

    Checking my weather stations history I see that it was 9C - at 3am... The measured temperature through the night was:

    12am - 10.3c
    1am - 9.0c
    2am - 9.9c
    3am - 9.2c
    4am - 7.1c
    5am - 6.4c
    6am - 6.1c
    6:30am - 5.8c

    So if lag is the cause of the error not a measurement error there is around 3 1/2 to 5 1/2 hours lag. Unfortunately I wont be home much longer to see if the Evotouch reading continues to fall as actual temperature starts rising (lag) or whether it stays the same. (In the time since I first checked this morning outside temperature has crept up to 6.2c)
    Last edited by DBMandrake; 10th September 2020 at 08:05 AM.

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