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Thread: single point cat 8

  1. #1
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    Default single point cat 8

    Hi, I am looking at wiring my new home, would your recommend cat8 like the single point network, can I use your extenders etc. with this type of cable. It seems more flexible than cat 5?

  2. #2

    Default Re: single point cat 8

    Hi James,

    I have seen the Singlepoint stuff at Smarthome and all of us who looked at it were unimpressed.

    There is no "official" CAT8 standard as yet, it just seems to be a name they have chosen to make it appear better than CAT5/6

    The connectors it uses are totally non standard. It doesnt use the familiar RJ45 but a strange connector where each of the 4 pairs appears as a separate 2 pin connector. They did have some connectors for Ethernet usage that connected to two of the pairs but primarly the main "advantage" that they were pushing was the fact that you could use individual pairs of the cable. The 2 pin connectors were unpolarised so a reversal of polarity would be very easy to accomplish accidently.

    A structure cabling scheme should consist of a CAT5/6 cable to a single RJ45 socket. If you want 4 devices located at a particular point then you run 4 cables and have 4 outlets.

    Whilst any of the CAT5 cables can be used for a variety of purposes eg Ethernet, Telephone, ISDN, AV (KAT5) etc a cable should only be used for one type of service at any one time.

    Any "splitting" of use on a cable, be it a regular CAT5 installation using the "I didnt run enough cables" economisers, or the Singlepoint CAT8 system will lead to a very messy patch panel and greatly increase the possibiliy of connecting incompatable pieces of equipment together.

    You could use KAT5 with the Singlepoint wiring provided that you had suitable leads. KAT5 uses all 4 pairs in the cable and uses the familiar RJ45. I dont see how the singlepoint wiring can add any flexibility when all 4 pairs are needed.

    Singlepoint seem to be trying to re-invent structured cabling which has been successfully used in commercial installations for almost 20 years and is now becoming more common in the domestic environment.

    I would strongley advise you to stick to a traditional Structured Wiring System based on CAT5e or CAT6 whilst bearing in mind that CAT6 will be more expensive and has more stringent installation requirements.

    Hope that helps

    Keith
    KAT5.tv - affordable high quality AV Distribution
    http://www.kat5.tv

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    Automated Home Jr Member nickgale's Avatar
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    Default Re: single point cat 8

    I agree - I have looked at Lexcom. Abitana and the single point system which I also saw at Smarthome NEC. What gets me is the cost of cable - 1.50 per M, Ah yes they say but it can do the same job as 4 Cat5's, but of course this is not actually true.... So compare 1.50 per m with less than 10p per m for Cat 5e, it's a no brainer. As a system integrator and installer I have yet to be convinced that anything is better than good old Cat5e, Oh yes and don't get me started on the bending radius of the cable...................

    Also consider the range of faceplate options that exist for Cat5e from white plastic up to flatplate MK Edge, for example.

    Hope this helps!

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    Default Re: single point cat 8

    The other point that I have noted about cat8 is the ability to carry signals upto 1400MHZ, therefore is suitable for HD broadcasts. The extract of the article below is from Hiddenwires.co.uk

    Apparently in can be laid with the electric cables too, so thats an advantage isn't it?


    What is CAT8?

    CAT8 cable represents the current evolutionary cutting edge of twisted-pair copper data communications transmission technology that originated back with CAT5 cable. Indeed all of these cables use four twisted pairs in their construction. Of the older cable grades, CAT5 can take a maximum bandwidth of 100MHz, CAT6 is capable of 400MHz and CAT7 625MHz. CAT8 is capable of carrying a bandwidth of up to 1400MHz, so it easily meets and exceeds the IEC 61156-7 standard that sets the benchmark for multimedia cables at 1200MHz.

    CAT8 is normally referred to as 1.2GHz cable, and is capable of taking a standard European TV signal with a bandwidth of 862MHz without any form of signal manipulation. It should also be more than capable of taking the satellite signal from the proposed Sky HDTV broadcasts that are set to start in 2006.

  5. #5

    Default Re: single point cat 8

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesc
    The other point that I have noted about cat8 is the ability to carry signals upto 1400MHZ, therefore is suitable for HD broadcasts.
    That is a very dubious claim. What to they mean by HD ?

    Do they mean a broadband signal that carries an HD TV channel such as Satellite or Digtal terrestrial. The attenuation of the cable will not be linear. The higher frequencies will be attenuated far more than the lower frequencies. This is a problem for baluns that claim to be suitable for UHF distribution over CAT5/6 and the UHF band only covers 470-860MHz.

    A satellite baseband signal from the LNB is in the range 950MHz to 2GHz so would be outside the bandwidth of that cable. Also the satellite feed would require a polarisation voltage to power and select the correct band from the LNB.

    If they mean the HDMI output of a set top box or PC then I would suspect that they are being overly optimistic. There are already extenders for HDMI over CAT5 but they require 2 cables (8 pairs) to carry all the signals associated with HDMI.

    Apparently in can be laid with the electric cables too, so thats an advantage isn't it?
    Dubious !!!

    Low voltage cables should be segregated from mains cables by a physical barrier, ie a separate compartment in trunking or a a completely separate trunking.

    Best practice is to try an maintain a reasonable separation between communications cabling eg data, voice, AV etc and mains wiring to minimise the possibility of inteference although in reality, the very design of twisted pair cable means that when carrying a balanced signal it has extremely high immunity anyway.

    CBus maufacture a pink CAT5 cable that had a sheathing suitable for use in mains enclosures so the CAT8 isnt unique in claiming that it can be run with mains.

    At the end of the day, if you decide that CAT8 is what you want then that is what you will buy but as many people on this forum have already found out, CAT5e can be used for almost anyhing and is cheap as chips

    Regards

    Keith
    KAT5.tv - affordable high quality AV Distribution
    http://www.kat5.tv

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    Default Re: single point cat 8

    Hi

    reading this thread with great interest as i am about to start planning for a home network for audio, ADSL, Telephone, HDTV and a gate CCTV. I was going to run cat5e all over the place as seems to be the norm now but Have come across several sites about cat 8 and they have me hooked. I know the sockets are different but the beauty of it I feel is a single socket in each room for all my needs, a single cable to run (keeping bend radius to a min) and most of all the ability to take HDTV signals, something that cat5 just cant do. I run cat5 at work all the time and have been using it for years and do think its great for what it does but I do beilieve the future is cat8.
    Anyway can I diredt you to a site and see what you think about its claims for me. http://www.wiredhouse.co.uk/CAT8.htm

    Cheers
    mark

  7. #7

    Default Re: single point cat 8

    Hi Mark

    Quote Originally Posted by mstraxs
    reading this thread with great interest as i am about to start planning for a home network for audio, ADSL, Telephone, HDTV and a gate CCTV. I was going to run cat5e all over the place as seems to be the norm now but Have come across several sites about cat 8 and they have me hooked. I know the sockets are different but the beauty of it I feel is a single socket in each room for all my needs, a single cable to run (keeping bend radius to a min) and most of all the ability to take HDTV signals, something that cat5 just cant do. I run cat5 at work all the time and have been using it for years and do think its great for what it does but I do beilieve the future is cat8.

    Anyway can I diredt you to a site and see what you think about its claims for me. http://www.wiredhouse.co.uk/CAT8.htm
    I have looked at the website you mention and have a couple of comments

    You say about running a SINGLE cable to run but the website actually says...
    the ability to take up to eight services out of a single gang universal socket meant that the network can do just about anything you want it to do.
    ... but that is a faceplate with TWO outlets so you would need two cables to that point. The ability to run 8 services also relies on the fact that each of the services requires only a SINGLE PAIR.

    CAT8 was developed in 1999 which according to this document http://www.ucisa.ac.uk/groups/ng/doc...ngCat5Cat6.htm is before its predecessors were fully ratified

    Cat5e was not ratified as a standard until late 2000
    Cat6 was not ratified until June 2002

    Remarkably, at the time that Cat6 was ratified, so too was another standard, Cat7. It has ample headroom for applications beyond 10Gigabit Ethernet

    Cat7 is very considerably more expensive and more difficult to install than Cat6. As yet there is little demonstrable need for the additional capabilities that is brings. One major cabling company has reported not a single customer for it yet in the UK. Early applications may be highly specialised and a very cautious approach is recommended.

    At present Cat6 typically costs only 10% more than Cat5e to install


    Having read though the page you mention, I can see no specific reference to HDTV. The examples given as to possible usage are

    Terrestrial TV, CCTV, DAB, FM, Audio, IR Control, 10/100 or 100/1000 Ethernet Data network, Video, Phone, USB peripherals are all handled with ease

    Some of those can be carried over a single pair but there are quite a few that cant.

    USB requires two pairs, one for 0V and +5V and the other for the D+ and D- data signals

    A phone wired to the UK standard requires 3 wires so therefore 2 pairs.

    Digital audio or Mono Analogue audio can use a single pair but Stereo will require 2 pairs.

    Composite Video is a single pair but S-Video or higher required additional pairs (and dont forget the audio)

    Ethernet is two pairs TX and RX. Power Over Ethernet requires all four pairs.

    If you truely believe that CAT8 will fulfill your need by all means pay the premium for it but bear in mind that existing CAT5 installations are already being used for carrying services that werent thought possible a few years ago.

    Industry has a massive investment in CAT5 infrastructure and they arent going to replace it in a hurry. Manufacturers of all manner of devices are designing product to utilise the existing infrastructure so even if something currently cant be carried over CAT5 it probably wont be long before it can.

    As I said in a previous reply, the choice is yours but CAT5 (used as a generic term for 5/5e/6) is tried, tested, trusted and cheap.
    KAT5.tv - affordable high quality AV Distribution
    http://www.kat5.tv

  8. #8
    Automated Home Guru vex's Avatar
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    Default

    Agree with everything Keith has said (and we supply CAT7 systems)

    In addition, it is easy to claim that a cable can carry HDTV, even CAT5e and keiths KAT system can do that using analog component video distribution.

    The cost of HD distribution is not in the cable, it will be in the switching / splitting equipment.

    Another + for Cat5e, I have a manufacturer who can encode, stream and upscale video to HD over CAT5e as an IP stream.
    www.intouchtech.co.uk (trade)
    NOW PART OF INVISION UK, One of the leading home technology distributors to the CI Market.

  9. #9
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    Default

    I came across this post when I as search for "Cat8" installation experience and can't help but have to add my two cents to it
    Quote Originally Posted by katman View Post
    You say about running a SINGLE cable to run but the website actually says...
    the ability to take up to eight services out of a single gang universal socket meant that the network can do just about anything you want it to do.
    ... but that is a faceplate with TWO outlets so you would need two cables to that point. The ability to run 8 services also relies on the fact that each of the services requires only a SINGLE PAIR.
    website is missleading if it says 8 services, will have to check if it not saying UP TO eight on a single faceplate.
    Quote Originally Posted by katman View Post
    CAT8 was developed in 1999 which according to this document http://www.ucisa.ac.uk/groups/ng/doc...ngCat5Cat6.htm is before its predecessors were fully ratified

    Cat5e was not ratified as a standard until late 2000
    Cat6 was not ratified until June 2002

    Remarkably, at the time that Cat6 was ratified, so too was another standard, Cat7. It has ample headroom for applications beyond 10Gigabit Ethernet
    Sorry, there is no standard Cat7 and you should no. It is ISO/IEC 11801 Class F
    Quote Originally Posted by katman View Post
    Cat7 is very considerably more expensive and more difficult to install than Cat6. As yet there is little demonstrable need for the additional capabilities that is brings. One major cabling company has reported not a single customer for it yet in the UK. Early applications may be highly specialised and a very cautious approach is recommended.
    This sounds like back in the early stages when cars where developed and people where cautioned that they will die with access speeds faster than a horse

    Home automation is highly specialized as you know and requires the bandwidth the IEC 61156-7 multimedia standard requires. Cat5 can't offer this for native signals and data so companies like yours are compensating with electronic devices to transmit and don't like the idea of high speed heavy duty cabling because they might loose business to native cabling.

    Quote Originally Posted by katman View Post
    At present Cat6 typically costs only 10% more than Cat5e to install
    And can't supply nothing more for a home owner than Cat5 and doesn't come close to IEC 61156-7, Read up the offical standard frequency specs and you will see for yourself

    Quote Originally Posted by katman View Post
    Having read though the page you mention, I can see no specific reference to HDTV. The examples given as to possible usage are

    Terrestrial TV, CCTV, DAB, FM, Audio, IR Control, 10/100 or 100/1000 Ethernet Data network, Video, Phone, USB peripherals are all handled with ease

    Some of those can be carried over a single pair but there are quite a few that cant.

    USB requires two pairs, one for 0V and +5V and the other for the D+ and D- data signals

    A phone wired to the UK standard requires 3 wires so therefore 2 pairs.

    Digital audio or Mono Analogue audio can use a single pair but Stereo will require 2 pairs.

    Composite Video is a single pair but S-Video or higher required additional pairs (and dont forget the audio)

    Ethernet is two pairs TX and RX. Power Over Ethernet requires all four pairs.

    If you truely believe that CAT8 will fulfill your need by all means pay the premium for it but bear in mind that existing CAT5 installations are already being used for carrying services that werent thought possible a few years ago.
    Yes, and they all need devices like your company produces which is another premium that has to be paid for. Plus any electronic device can and will fail over time and needs to be replaced for $$$ Cabling only fails when you damage it physically and doesn't cost extra when you changes it's usage in the future. Right???

    Quote Originally Posted by katman View Post
    Industry has a massive investment in CAT5 infrastructure and they arent going to replace it in a hurry. Manufacturers of all manner of devices are designing product to utilise the existing infrastructure so even if something currently cant be carried over CAT5 it probably wont be long before it can.
    Are you trying to say that because one part of the industry, companies like KAT5, Geffen, etc., is trying to make business with adding devices to past cabling other industries are not trying to bring new technologies? Why was fibre optic cable developed if Cat5 copper is so good? Why was broadband technology developed when we still could use 56k modems???

    Quote Originally Posted by katman View Post
    As I said in a previous reply, the choice is yours but CAT5 (used as a generic term for 5/5e/6) is tried, tested, trusted and cheap.
    Yes, and cheap is not always cheap if you add the active components and add-ons you need to use new services. It is NOT the cabling that one should look at but the complete bill they pay at the end of the day

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