Z-Wave timer/roomstat?

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  • TimJWatts
    Automated Home Jr Member
    • Nov 2013
    • 21

    Z-Wave timer/roomstat?

    Hi,

    Is there a Z-Wave room stat that also contains 7 day timer logic? I must admit I cannot find any - only room stats that expect (I assume) to be controlled by a central programmer.

    I'd like a system where each room is self contained, with the only weak point being the boiler relay - and where the room user has easy and direct access to adjust their programming and temperature.

    Cheers,

    Tim
  • Quinten
    Automated Home Sr Member
    • May 2004
    • 85

    #2
    How about a Heatmiser PRT-TS Wifi? I've got 2 of those and using a plug-in on my Vera Z-Wave controller can control them locally, or using the Z-Wave controller...
    Awooga!!!

    Comment

    • TimJWatts
      Automated Home Jr Member
      • Nov 2013
      • 21

      #3
      Thanks - yeah - I did look at Heatmiser.

      But I decided the wiring would be excessive and I'd need to drop wires to a thermal wax actuator at the radiator, or have a motorised zone valve in the feed pipe.

      Then I'd also have to "OR" all the outputs to drive the boiler demand.

      My "ideal" system so far is actually the Conrad FHT - but the simplex comms bothers me (it is rumoured to be unreliable when you get too many, say >8-10 controllers babbling on the air.

      Z Wave looked interesting, having some interoperability and following a standard, yet being simpler (unlike zigbee) but having zigbee's mesh routing (subject to device support).

      I am happy with the Stella-Z valve (the Danfoss is rumoured to be unreliable, seem a report where the owner had to pull the batteries out every few days to get it to talk to the network).

      I'm happy with the choices for boiler control.

      What I would like to find is a Z-Wave version of the FHT80B which is a room timer stat.

      That leaves the system composed of relatively standalone components (save the boiler relay and I can have a spare) - but also with the option to remote control everything.

      I am a *great believer* in fancy systems being able to degrade gracefully in the even of faults. I'd even keep a boiler timer ready and wired and a few TRV heads in case the whole system failed

      Comment

      • wysinawyg
        Automated Home Lurker
        • Oct 2013
        • 17

        #4
        How many Stella-Zs do you think you'll have? (Z-Wave isn't a great protocol for running large numbers of battery powered devices)

        And how do you expect the Stella-Zs to fit in with your independent room thermostats?

        By the sounds of it you're asking for each zone to have its own controller that triggers both the Stella-Z and the Boiler Relay. Thats a degree of redundancy I just don't think you're going to find.

        Horstmann do a 7 day Z-Wave programmer, but it only speaks to the Boiler Relay so if you're looking at radiator stats too that isn't going to work.

        Comment

        • TimJWatts
          Automated Home Jr Member
          • Nov 2013
          • 21

          #5
          Good questions to which I have answers

          11-12 Stella-Zs

          In most cases, one per room stat, in 2 cases, 2 StellaZs on a single room stat.

          2 StellaZ's will be paired with a 2nd "boiler relay" that actually starts the low temperature mixing circuit (underfloor heating, needs <=40C rather than 50-60C) and I will use simple relay logic to cause a boiler demand from this.

          The rest will be bound with the primary boiler demand relay.

          That's the base system - there will be some central point of control but if that fails, the system should basically operate.

          There are likely to be other ZWave devices (meter readers, odd controls for lighting outside).



          > "By the sounds of it you're asking for each zone to have its own controller that triggers both the Stella-Z and the Boiler Relay. Thats a degree of redundancy I just don't think you're going to find."

          Yes - that sums it up Exactly how you might deploy the Conrad FHT. Well, I can use the FHT if I am careful to test the system is not missing too many messages, but as I said, ZWave looked cute.

          Comment

          • wysinawyg
            Automated Home Lurker
            • Oct 2013
            • 17

            #6
            Right well 11-12 Stella-Zs is possibly pushing it, especially if you're planning to have (battery) thermostats in lots of the rooms and are looking for a responsive system. There is a thread on the Indigo forums about Stella-Zs and the problems of the Z-Wave protocol when you have lots of devices waking up and needing a quick response from the controller. The people behind Indigo have modified the software to avoid it crashing, but with 12 rad valves and half a dozen thermostats I think you're pushing the limits of the protocol from what I've read (certainly enough so such that I went cool on the idea of the system as its a lot of money to discover it isn't reliable).

            Stella-Zs are slave only devices so they can't speak to the boiler relays directly. I'm not sure whether they can take "associations" such that you could have them directly controlled by a thermostat as well as a central controller (and as per my earlier post the only 7 day Z-Wave thermostat I'm aware of in the UK won't pair with anything except its own boiler relay). You might have luck with the Horstmann dial thermostat to give local (but not programmed from the device) control to some extent assuming (i) the Stella-Z can be associated with the thermostat; and (ii) the thermostat gives the right commands to actually be of any use to the Stella-Z. On the latter point it definitely can't send the current set point to the Stella-Z, so the best you could hope for (though it should work) is to set the Stella-Z to 25 degrees with the main controller and then have the thermostat flick it between that and frost protection modes (6 degrees) depending on whether the thermostat thought the room needed heat.

            Whether you can bind half a dozen thermostats with a central controller and also with a single boiler relay (which in turn is bound to the central controller as well) is a similarly questionnable scenario but more likely to work as it really just turns on whether the boiler relay accepts associations and if so how many.

            All in I'm highly doubtful whether you can get anything close to what you're looking for in terms of redundancy if the controller goes down. I also think you're pushing Z-Wave altogether which is why I've abandoned (after a lot of research) the idea of doing what you're looking for relying on central control as well.

            Comment

            • TimJWatts
              Automated Home Jr Member
              • Nov 2013
              • 21

              #7
              Thank you for that.

              I did not know the StellaZ's were simplex - I assumed they could at least manage an "ACK" and maybe return status (eg battery level and valve position).

              As I understand it, in the Conrad FHT system, the room timer/stats are bound with one or more FS20 radiator valves and with upto one boiler relay (which may be bound with upto 10 room stats).

              The rad valves are simplex with the message frame repeated 3 times.

              The boiler relay is also a passive simplex device that listens for "valve open" type messages from it's associated stats.

              So the only signal is each room stat sending 3 messages every couple of minutes. I do not think the system has any collision avoidance/retry logic (which is tricky with radio systems, but possible to a limited extent).

              The room stats are duplex so may be interrogated and remote commanded from a central controller.

              I assumed the ZWave devices were similar, but with duplex comms for more reliability and a more standardised protocol, but I could be wrong....

              Comment

              • wysinawyg
                Automated Home Lurker
                • Oct 2013
                • 17

                #8
                If you're using a proper controller then yes you get acknowledgements, battery, set point and temperature - I was just meaning if you try to have them speak straight to a thermostat you won't get that.

                The problem is actually because of the collision detection etc. To save battery they only wake up briefly. The problem is then if you get two waking up at the same time one of them will have shut down before the other has finished reporting. The controller then doesn't know the difference between a StellaZ which has gone to sleep and a transmission problem, so will keep trying to contact the now sleeping StellaZ. In the mean time the next one wakes up, asks for instructions and goes to sleep again when it doesn't get them and you end up with a massive pile up.

                The indigo guys have been very good about tailoring their offering to try and avoid this by just sleeping the StellaZs if one wakes up while its dealing with another (so it should then be first to wake up next and so only misses one report). But that means you're then looking at potentially 14 mins between giving an instruction to the StellaZ and it receiving it and afaik there is nobody using more than about a dozen StellaZs (and they don't have the communication overhead of room stats on top).

                It may work okay through a controller, but personally I wasn't willing to shell out the cash on the off chance when the protocol clearly isn't designed with that in mind. The problem being it will work fine until you've spent most of the money so you can't even really buy a few to see if its an issue.

                Comment

                • martyn.wendon
                  Automated Home Jr Member
                  • Dec 2013
                  • 41

                  #9
                  Originally posted by TimJWatts View Post
                  Thanks - yeah - I did look at Heatmiser.

                  But I decided the wiring would be excessive and I'd need to drop wires to a thermal wax actuator at the radiator, or have a motorised zone valve in the feed pipe.

                  Then I'd also have to "OR" all the outputs to drive the boiler demand.

                  My "ideal" system so far is actually the Conrad FHT - but the simplex comms bothers me (it is rumoured to be unreliable when you get too many, say >8-10 controllers babbling on the air.

                  Z Wave looked interesting, having some interoperability and following a standard, yet being simpler (unlike zigbee) but having zigbee's mesh routing (subject to device support).

                  I am happy with the Stella-Z valve (the Danfoss is rumoured to be unreliable, seem a report where the owner had to pull the batteries out every few days to get it to talk to the network).

                  I'm happy with the choices for boiler control.

                  What I would like to find is a Z-Wave version of the FHT80B which is a room timer stat.

                  That leaves the system composed of relatively standalone components (save the boiler relay and I can have a spare) - but also with the option to remote control everything.

                  I am a *great believer* in fancy systems being able to degrade gracefully in the even of faults. I'd even keep a boiler timer ready and wired and a few TRV heads in case the whole system failed
                  I've actually been running a Conrad / HouseHeat / ELV system for maybe 4 or 5 years now and it's proven pretty reliable. I have 10 radiators across 10 rooms with 10 FHT stats and actuators and the boiler control. I also have the FHZ USB controller running with FHEM and a xAP gateway for integration into other HA systems.

                  Overall it's been a good experience, each thermostat can be locally programmed and the USB controller / FHEM / xAP gateway give status and control options externally. I've not noticed any communication issues, the actuators on the radiators react pretty quickly to changes on the thermostats. I've got the boiler control to only kick in if an actuator is opened by 8% or more and it's all pretty autonomous.

                  With FHEM you have the option of web interface control and iOS and Android Apps plus the xAP gateway gives integration with other HA systems.

                  That said, it has one drawback in that the USB controller seems to "queue" any commands you send to it and decides to send them out "when it damn well wants to" This means that it's not *that* great for instantly turning a radiator off or down in reaction to say opening a window or a door.

                  I've been looking for a Z-Wave solution myself and am hoping to try some options out soon, but I really want to replicate exactly the same functionality I have at the moment with a completely autonomous system with HA integration overlaid on top.

                  Will update this thread if I get any further with a comparable solution!
                  Martyn Wendon
                  Vesternet
                  Check out my Blog!

                  Comment

                  • zimguy
                    Automated Home Lurker
                    • Nov 2013
                    • 6

                    #10
                    Originally posted by martyn.wendon View Post
                    I've been looking for a Z-Wave solution myself and am hoping to try some options out soon, but I really want to replicate exactly the same functionality I have at the moment with a completely autonomous system with HA integration overlaid on top.

                    Will update this thread if I get any further with a comparable solution!
                    @Martyn: Any luck with your Z-Wave solution? What have you gone for in the Z-Wave range?

                    Comment

                    • martyn.wendon
                      Automated Home Jr Member
                      • Dec 2013
                      • 41

                      #11
                      Originally posted by zimguy View Post
                      @Martyn: Any luck with your Z-Wave solution? What have you gone for in the Z-Wave range?
                      Nothing so far! I *really* want the same functionality that I currently have - each room has a separate Thermostat that can be programmed over 7 days with 2 on/off times per day with 2 set-point temperatures. And each Thermostat can control one or more radiator valve. And each Thermostat reports back to the boiler control - the boiler control only turns on the boiler if 1 or more Thermostat says there is a need for heat. And then the HA control layer over the top.

                      I want a lot don't I?

                      The closest I think I can get with Z-Wave is with StellaZ radiator valves, Secure LCD thermostats for the local set-point temperature, a Secure Boiler receiver to interlock the boiler and a MiCasaVerde Vera to do all the logic / zone time programming. But that might work out a bit of an expensive solution. I could forego the Secure LCD thermostats, but then I wouldn't have local override and display of set-point & temperature. I'm probably going to go this route since I already have a Vera.

                      The StellaZ are good value so I can probably stretch to all 10 radiators in one go and maybe do a single Secure LCD thermostat upstairs and downstairs as in interim solution, adding one per room over a period of time. I also found that the StellaZ can be controlled in "direct" mode - you can tell them exactly what % to open, as opposed to just controlling the set-point - I just need to work out how to do that on a Vera :-) This would be great and allow really fine-grained control of the heating based on *my* logic as opposed to what the TRV thinks it needs to do.

                      Whichever way I go, I'm going to be attacking it at the end of this Winter and will have it ready for use next Winter :-)
                      Martyn Wendon
                      Vesternet
                      Check out my Blog!

                      Comment

                      • zimguy
                        Automated Home Lurker
                        • Nov 2013
                        • 6

                        #12
                        Originally posted by martyn.wendon View Post
                        I could forego the Secure LCD thermostats, but then I wouldn't have local override and display of set-point & temperature.
                        Other than on Smartphone/tablet of course. There does seem to be shortage of affordable Z-Wave thermostats. Perhaps using RFXCom, you can use a non-Z-wave thermostat?

                        Originally posted by martyn.wendon View Post
                        The StellaZ are good value so I can probably stretch to all 10 radiators in one go and maybe do a single Secure LCD thermostat upstairs and downstairs as in interim solution, adding one per room over a period of time.
                        I am not sure why the TRVs for Z-Wave are so expensive. Pegler, Technoline, and others seem to be able to make RF based TRVs for half the price of those Z-Wave options currently available, but sadly not for Z-wave.

                        Comment

                        • BatterBits
                          Automated Home Lurker
                          • Jan 2014
                          • 7

                          #13
                          I'm wondering whether the eQ-3 Max! System (also available from Conrad) would serve your purposes. It seems to represent excellent value -

                          TRVs - £24.99
                          Window sensors £16.99 (causes TRV to shut down if window opens)
                          Room Stat - £25.99

                          The only "problem" seems to be that there is no "native" boiler control in the system - although I'm confident that you could use A N Other - and would welcome any ideas as to how to go about this.
                          Regards,


                          Ian

                          Comment

                          • zimguy
                            Automated Home Lurker
                            • Nov 2013
                            • 6

                            #14
                            Originally posted by BatterBits View Post
                            I'm wondering whether the eQ-3 Max! System (also available from Conrad) would serve your purposes. It seems to represent excellent value -

                            TRVs - £24.99
                            Window sensors £16.99 (causes TRV to shut down if window opens)
                            Room Stat - £25.99

                            The only "problem" seems to be that there is no "native" boiler control in the system - although I'm confident that you could use A N Other - and would welcome any ideas as to how to go about this.
                            I have recently bought some Pegler iTemp TRVs which are very similar to the eQ-3 Max! ones, but they install right-way up on UK radiators (eQ-3 MAx! systems are designed for the European style radiators and so the display is upside down when installed on a UK radiator). They are available for about £20 and there are deals available for multi-buys - I picked up 8 of them for £120.
                            They work really well, but there does not appear to be any way to remotely control them, other than from their own window sensor or remote control, which are paired with the TRV. They also don't have a boiler switching capability. They may well be compatible with the eQ-3 Max! Cube LAN Gateway, as the remote for them and other Pegler supplied compatible devices are branded as eQ-3 Max!.

                            For my house, I am looking at a solution that uses a combination of these iTemp TRVs in rooms that do not need to be heated individually, such as bathrooms and kitchen (i.e. where heat can be turned off by these TRVs for most of the time), and then possibly a z-wave system with TRV's or Room thermostats in rooms that need heating (i.e. rooms that are likely to be used for longer periods whilst the rest of the house is not heated), such as my office and the living room. The rooms with the iTemp TRVs would then be "piggy-backing" off the other rooms which do have the ability to turn the boiler on and so will need to only have heating on whilst the heating is on for one of the z-wave controlled rooms.

                            Comment

                            • martyn.wendon
                              Automated Home Jr Member
                              • Dec 2013
                              • 41

                              #15
                              Originally posted by zimguy View Post
                              I have recently bought some Pegler iTemp TRVs which are very similar to the eQ-3 Max! ones, but they install right-way up on UK radiators (eQ-3 MAx! systems are designed for the European style radiators and so the display is upside down when installed on a UK radiator). They are available for about £20 and there are deals available for multi-buys - I picked up 8 of them for £120.
                              They work really well, but there does not appear to be any way to remotely control them, other than from their own window sensor or remote control, which are paired with the TRV. They also don't have a boiler switching capability. They may well be compatible with the eQ-3 Max! Cube LAN Gateway, as the remote for them and other Pegler supplied compatible devices are branded as eQ-3 Max!.

                              For my house, I am looking at a solution that uses a combination of these iTemp TRVs in rooms that do not need to be heated individually, such as bathrooms and kitchen (i.e. where heat can be turned off by these TRVs for most of the time), and then possibly a z-wave system with TRV's or Room thermostats in rooms that need heating (i.e. rooms that are likely to be used for longer periods whilst the rest of the house is not heated), such as my office and the living room. The rooms with the iTemp TRVs would then be "piggy-backing" off the other rooms which do have the ability to turn the boiler on and so will need to only have heating on whilst the heating is on for one of the z-wave controlled rooms.
                              Interesting, I've not seen the Pegler stuff before and it certainly seems cheap enough to take a punt at. There's a press release at http://www.pegleryorkshire.co.uk/EN/...empaccessories that seems to suggest there's a USB stick available and PC software for setting schedules etc, but it's not clear if that extends to "complete" remote control. Might be worth looking at FHEM and the likes to see if it is compatible in any way.

                              But for me, anything that's non-two way communication isn't going to fly :-( The ELV / Conrad / HouseHeat FS20 based stuff I've been using for a number of years is "ok" but if and when I upgrade it will definitely be to something that has two-way communication. The new LightwaveRF heating stuff looks tempting, but I just heard it's been pushed back another "few months" (it's been "coming soon" for over a year now!) and the recent price hike for LightwaveRF stuff is pushing it up amongst better technologies like Z-Wave and Insteon (in my opinion).

                              So as it stands, I'm pretty much sold on the Secure Thermostats for room control, with either the StellaZ or Danfoss valve controls for the radiators (the new Danfoss LC-13 recently released sorts out some reliability issues) and the Secure Receiver for interlocking the Boiler. All controlled by my Vera Z-Wave controller in theory!


                              Martyn
                              Martyn Wendon
                              Vesternet
                              Check out my Blog!

                              Comment

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