new to evoHome - existing Honeywell wireless room thermostat

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  • DBMandrake
    Automated Home Legend
    • Sep 2014
    • 2361

    #16
    Originally posted by bruce_miranda View Post
    Some more potential benefits of the evohome HW kit are
    1. The HW is also controlled simultaneously with the Quick Actions on the Heating side.
    Sort of. As a new hot water kit user I find the quick actions are a bit quirky in regards to hot water.

    Specifically:

    1) If you use the heating off action which without a hot water kit is the quick "everything off" action it actually leaves hot water following its normal schedule, EG on when scheduled to be on. This does make sense because the action is called "heating off", and it also makes sense that during the summer for example you might want to manually turn the heating off but you would still require hot water.

    However there is no "heating + hot water off" quick action to let you quickly disable both heating and hot water when you are for example leaving the house for several hours (or days) during a time when heating and hot water would normally be scheduled on - eg a Saturday or Sunday.

    So you actually have to choose the heating off quick action, and then go into hot water and do a manual permanent override to off for hot water to achieve this, which I would argue isn't obvious to a non technical user. Nor would remembering to separately cancel the hot water off override in addition to cancelling the heating off quick action.

    This is symptomatic of the limitations of the quick actions in general though.

    2) If the heating is on and you choose the "Day Off" quick action, both heating and hot water will switch to the (by default) Saturday schedule - I am using this right now as I'm off work for 2 weeks, and this works great.

    However there is a major gotcha - if I were to turn the heating off with the heating off quick action, which I would probably do during the summer, the hot water returns to the current days schedule (Thursday) instead of the day off schedule. There is no way to turn off the heating and at the same time have the hot water continue to follow the day off schedule.

    This is a quite inconsistent user experience IMHO. Because on the one hand if you turn off the heating on a normal day the hot water stays on and continues to follow the same schedule, however if you go from a day off schedule to heating off you may suddenly find your hot water has gone off as well if the different day's schedule would have your hot water off at the current time.

    The workaround is after using the heating off quick action, if that results in your hot water going off as well (because you were previously on the day off quick action) is to set a timed manual override for the hot water to bring it back on again until your normal night time off temperature. This works OK but feels clumsy to me and wouldn't necessarily be obvious to a non technical user.

    I've said it many times before, but the quick actions are the biggest weak point of the Evohome user interface as they are quite limited and inconsistent in their operation.
    2. You can have a HW overrun, to dump the remain heat of the boiler into the cylinder, rather than just waste it. This feature tends not to be possible with a traditional clock, because it would simply shut off the valve when the time or thermostat has shut off.
    You could do it with a traditional timer if you added an additional timer like an MRT16-REM for the overrun but yes in general a standard timer won't allow for hot water overrun.

    Keep in mind though that for hot water overrun to work on the Evohome you must be using a 3x BDR91 configuration including a boiler relay or 2x BDR91 + OpenTherm. A 2x BDR91 configuration alone can't do hot water overrun any more than a standard timer can because the boiler is fired from the zone valve limit switch.
    3. The HW kit temperature sensor is more finely manageable.
    Yes that's true. It's quite nice that you can set the hot water temperature anywhere from about 30 degrees to 70 degrees with a one degree resolution. And as long as you don't use hot water overrun it seems to hit the target pretty precisely - usually on the dot, but occasionally one or two degrees over.
    4. You can set a temperature differential settings, so if the HW is hot enough, but not up to the temp set, it won't bother firing the boiler unnecessarily.
    Yes it's nice you can adjust the differential too. Keep in mind a standard cylinder stat does already have a fairly wide differential - 8 degrees is typical for most mechanical thermostats. I actually have the differential turned down to 5 degrees on my Evohome (rather than the default 10) as I only have my hot water set to 50 degrees and don't want it falling as low as 40.

    I find my cylinder loses about 1 degree per hour so a 5 degree differential still means the boiler only reheats it once about every 5 hours if no hot water is used, and only takes about 5 minutes boiler run time to get it back from 45 to 50 degrees, so I'm fairly happy with that.
    Last edited by DBMandrake; 27 October 2016, 01:26 PM.

    Comment

    • paulockenden
      Automated Home Legend
      • Apr 2015
      • 1719

      #17
      Originally posted by DBMandrake View Post
      However there is a major gotcha - if I were to turn the heating off with the heating off quick action, which I would probably do during the summer, the hot water returns to the current days schedule (Thursday) instead of the day off schedule. There is no way to turn off the heating and at the same time have the hot water continue to follow the day off schedule.

      This is a quite inconsistent user experience IMHO.
      I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. If I have a quick action selected, and then I select a different one, I'd expect the first one to be cancelled first.

      I can imagine a whole world of pain if the system allowed layering of quick actions, one on top of another.

      To take your example. Select Day Off. Then select Heating Off. Then how do you cancel Day Off while leaving the heating off? You could tie yourself in knots trying to work out the logic combinations there.

      I think it's pretty obvious to the user that Quick Actions are exclusive modes.

      And besides, using the UI on the controller is it even POSSIBLE to select one quick action without first cancelling the previous one? I'm not convinced that it is (I don't have a controller in front of me).

      Comment

      • Rameses
        Industry Expert
        • Nov 2014
        • 446

        #18
        Originally posted by DBMandrake View Post
        Sort of. As a new hot water kit user I find the quick actions are a bit quirky in regards to hot water.

        Specifically:

        1) If you use the heating off action which without a hot water kit is the quick "everything off" action it actually leaves hot water following its normal schedule, EG on when scheduled to be on. This does make sense because the action is called "heating off", and it also makes sense that during the summer for example you might want to manually turn the heating off but you would still require hot water.

        However there is no "heating + hot water off" quick action to let you quickly disable both heating and hot water when you are for example leaving the house for several hours (or days) during a time when heating and hot water would normally be scheduled on - eg a Saturday or Sunday.

        So you actually have to choose the heating off quick action, and then go into hot water and do a manual permanent override to off for hot water to achieve this, which I would argue isn't obvious to a non technical user. Nor would remembering to separately cancel the hot water off override in addition to cancelling the heating off quick action.

        This is symptomatic of the limitations of the quick actions in general though.

        2) If the heating is on and you choose the "Day Off" quick action, both heating and hot water will switch to the (by default) Saturday schedule - I am using this right now as I'm off work for 2 weeks, and this works great.

        However there is a major gotcha - if I were to turn the heating off with the heating off quick action, which I would probably do during the summer, the hot water returns to the current days schedule (Thursday) instead of the day off schedule. There is no way to turn off the heating and at the same time have the hot water continue to follow the day off schedule.

        This is a quite inconsistent user experience IMHO. Because on the one hand if you turn off the heating on a normal day the hot water stays on and continues to follow the same schedule, however if you go from a day off schedule to heating off you may suddenly find your hot water has gone off as well if the different day's schedule would have your hot water off at the current time.

        The workaround is after using the heating off quick action, if that results in your hot water going off as well (because you were previously on the day off quick action) is to set a timed manual override for the hot water to bring it back on again until your normal night time off temperature. This works OK but feels clumsy to me and wouldn't necessarily be obvious to a non technical user.

        I've said it many times before, but the quick actions are the biggest weak point of the Evohome user interface as they are quite limited and inconsistent in their operation.

        You could do it with a traditional timer if you added an additional timer like an MRT16-REM for the overrun but yes in general a standard timer won't allow for hot water overrun.

        Keep in mind though that for hot water overrun to work on the Evohome you must be using a 3x BDR91 configuration including a boiler relay or 2x BDR91 + OpenTherm. A 2x BDR91 configuration alone can't do hot water overrun any more than a standard timer can because the boiler is fired from the zone valve limit switch.

        Yes that's true. It's quite nice that you can set the hot water temperature anywhere from about 30 degrees to 70 degrees with a one degree resolution. And as long as you don't use hot water overrun it seems to hit the target pretty precisely - usually on the dot, but occasionally one or two degrees over.

        Yes it's nice you can adjust the differential too. Keep in mind a standard cylinder stat does already have a fairly wide differential - 8 degrees is typical for most mechanical thermostats. I actually have the differential turned down to 5 degrees on my Evohome (rather than the default 10) as I only have my hot water set to 50 degrees and don't want it falling as low as 40.

        I find my cylinder loses about 1 degree per hour so a 5 degree differential still means the boiler only reheats it once about every 5 hours if no hot water is used, and only takes about 5 minutes boiler run time to get it back from 45 to 50 degrees, so I'm fairly happy with that.
        To your point 1)
        "However there is no "heating + hot water off" quick action to let you quickly disable both heating and hot water" - Yes there is it's called away mode

        Away mode will turn off both. But only work in permanent or by day increments. In your example for days this works.
        Because most Hot Water solutions offer a high degree of insulation and the degrade of loss curve is over hours and not minutes, along with the size of the tank will mean that a typical family should in theory need a scheduled amount of heat. Eg on in morning and evening, possibly a small top up in the middle (in the case of my family). If the schedule is ON this doesn't mean the the boiler is on. The boiler only comes on if within the schedule the HW drops outside your parameters. In 3 hours, you lose 3 degrees, but your differential is 5 ish then you will not need this degree of hourly control, and your boiler wouldn't ignite. Taking this even further even if you lower the temp of you tank it could still be ok for domestic needs. My family and I are fine with the HW tank dropping to high 40's during the day (in extreme circumstance) as this still provides Hot water to wash up, wash hands etc.
        getconnected.honeywell.com | I work for Honeywell. Any posts I make are purely to help if I can. Any personal views expressed are my own

        Comment

        • DBMandrake
          Automated Home Legend
          • Sep 2014
          • 2361

          #19
          Originally posted by paulockenden View Post
          I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. If I have a quick action selected, and then I select a different one, I'd expect the first one to be cancelled first.

          I can imagine a whole world of pain if the system allowed layering of quick actions, one on top of another.

          To take your example. Select Day Off. Then select Heating Off. Then how do you cancel Day Off while leaving the heating off? You could tie yourself in knots trying to work out the logic combinations there.

          I think it's pretty obvious to the user that Quick Actions are exclusive modes.
          The fact that the quick actions are all mutually exclusive is precisely one of the major problems with the quick action feature in my opinion, and what limits its current and future functionality in artificially restrictive ways...

          It's funny that you should use Day Off as your example because this is one that I believe should definitely not be mutually exclusive to other options. The purpose of the day off action is to handle the situation that people are home in the house on days that they normally wouldn't be, eg bank holidays, sick days or time taken off work.

          Why should this be mutually exclusive to all other options ? Why can't I use Eco mode when I am in Day off mode ? They are completely orthogonal actions, yet the overly simplistic one mutually exclusive action at a time UI design precludes this possibility.

          I've been off work for the last two weeks and the system has been in day off mode - I'm unable to use Eco mode because of this. Nor can I use Custom mode properly, because the zones that are masked off can only follow their current day schedule when Custom is active rather than a day off schedule.

          Furthermore, if I decide that every day for the next X days should be treated as a day off, I should be able to set Day Off as an independent setting, either permanently or until a specific date (The day I return to work) and have that remembered until I specifically cancel Day Off or the set date expires.

          I should be able to turn the heating off then on again without having to remember to manually re-enable Day Off mode every time as a second step. What's the point of being able to set that Day off mode should last for 7 days if I have to remember to work out how many days are left and manually re-select this every time just because I turned the heating off for 3 hours when I went out ? I should be able to combine Day Off with Eco and Custom modes.

          In short Day Off should be a setting not a quick action, as it is not mutually exclusive. The only reason it is currently mutually exclusive is because of the overly simplistic and inflexible UI for Quick Actions. Day Off mode (as an example) could have easily been a toggleable setting on the quick action page rather than a mode in its own right.

          It's just bad user interface design I'm afraid, where the requirements of real world use have outgrown the inflexible GUI design. The whole quick action system needs a ground up rework.

          I described some ideas on how it could be redesigned at length in the what would you like to see thread some time ago, so this is something I've given a lot of thought, based on real world use scenarios.

          Day Off also really needs to have its own independent schedule for each zone rather than just using a specified day of the week like Saturday. I find that day off is not appropriate when one member of the household has the day off and the other is staying home. The main difference between my week day and weekend schedules is that the week day schedules have earlier on times but are off during the middle of the day while the weekend schedule starts later but runs all day for the most part.

          If one person is still going to work the early start is needed but the all day schedule is required for the other person - an independent schedule for day off would solve this cleanly.

          And besides, using the UI on the controller is it even POSSIBLE to select one quick action without first cancelling the previous one? I'm not convinced that it is (I don't have a controller in front of me).
          [/quote]
          No its not possible to go directly from one quick action to another without cancelling the first one through the controller UI. It can be done from the phone app but the effect is the same - all modes are still mutually exclusive so going to one mode always cancels any previous mode.

          Originally posted by Rameses View Post
          To your point 1)
          "However there is no "heating + hot water off" quick action to let you quickly disable both heating and hot water" - Yes there is it's called away mode

          Away mode will turn off both. But only work in permanent or by day increments. In your example for days this works.
          Thanks for that - I wasn't aware that Away mode turned off hot water, however Away mode in itself is pretty well useless for me, because as I've described before, it doesn't just drop set points to 15 degrees (or whatever your away temperature is) it also raises set points to 15 degrees even if they were already lower than 15 degrees.

          As I schedule unused rooms to 5 degrees for at least part of the day they can fall below 15 degrees - this would result in unused rooms coming on when the Away action is applied to leave the house, which is totally ridiculous when Away should only reduce heating not bring on rooms that are unoccupied and scheduled to be off.

          This is particularly the case if Away mode was used over multiple days - all rooms here except the bedrooms are scheduled to 5 degrees at night, leaving away mode set over night would cause most of the rooms in the house to be running to keep all rooms at 15 degrees through the night - a massive increase in gas usage over night for "away" mode versus even my normal "on" program.

          Away mode should act as a cap where temperatures will be lowered to the away temperature but not raised to the away temperature. Until and if that ever happens Away mode is no use to me.

          I still think it is very inconsistent UI design that Away mode will turn on heating (in unused rooms) and turn off hot water completely, and then going to heating off mode will turn off heating in all rooms but turn on hot water! This really needs a ground up rethink.
          Because most Hot Water solutions offer a high degree of insulation and the degrade of loss curve is over hours and not minutes, along with the size of the tank will mean that a typical family should in theory need a scheduled amount of heat. Eg on in morning and evening, possibly a small top up in the middle (in the case of my family). If the schedule is ON this doesn't mean the the boiler is on. The boiler only comes on if within the schedule the HW drops outside your parameters. In 3 hours, you lose 3 degrees, but your differential is 5 ish then you will not need this degree of hourly control, and your boiler wouldn't ignite. Taking this even further even if you lower the temp of you tank it could still be ok for domestic needs. My family and I are fine with the HW tank dropping to high 40's during the day (in extreme circumstance) as this still provides Hot water to wash up, wash hands etc.
          Yep, as I mentioned even with a 5 degree differential it only needs to top up the temperature every 5 hours, which is not a problem.

          However if I am leaving the house for most of the day or even a day or two I'd like to be able to turn the hot water off. At the moment if I want to use the heating off quick action I must also perform a separate manual override for the hot water. A "heating and hot water off" action would certainly be useful - all it would need to do is set the hot water to OFF as a permanent override. A "heating and hot water on" action could reverse this.

          Again the quick action UI is poorly designed - I don't know how many times I've been asked by my other half why turning the heating on is done by "cancelling the heating off quick action" - which on the iPhone UI is a somewhat counter intuitive operation. (Why would you "cancel" something to turn something on ?)

          A redesign of the whole quick action system to provide some more flexibility and a more consistent UI design would be warmly welcomed...
          Last edited by DBMandrake; 27 October 2016, 08:02 PM.

          Comment

          • paulockenden
            Automated Home Legend
            • Apr 2015
            • 1719

            #20
            I honestly think that for the typical user that would just make things overly complicated.

            And in all the time I've had Evohome installed I can't remember ever wanting to run two quick actions in parallel.

            I know you're very enthusiastic for this, but (for once) I quite strongly disagree with you.

            Also, many of us have a 'wife acceptance factor' to deal with (or the reverse in the case of Mavis). I think I'd really struggle to get Mrs O to grasp layered quick actions. She struggles enough with basic Evohome as it is. In fact we had the "why can't we go back to having a simple thermostat in the hall?" conversation only a few days ago.

            Comment

            • DBMandrake
              Automated Home Legend
              • Sep 2014
              • 2361

              #21
              Originally posted by paulockenden View Post
              I honestly think that for the typical user that would just make things overly complicated.

              And in all the time I've had Evohome installed I can't remember ever wanting to run two quick actions in parallel.

              I know you're very enthusiastic for this, but (for once) I quite strongly disagree with you.

              Also, many of us have a 'wife acceptance factor' to deal with (or the reverse in the case of Mavis). I think I'd really struggle to get Mrs O to grasp layered quick actions. She struggles enough with basic Evohome as it is. In fact we had the "why can't we go back to having a simple thermostat in the hall?" conversation only a few days ago.
              I take your points, but wasn't it you that argued for an optional "expert mode" in the UI some time ago ? Perhaps both newbies and power users could be accommodated with the same software with a bit of clever UI design and a normal/expert mode.

              I'm afraid I do find the quick actions artificially limiting and quite clunky just for regular day to day use. I frequently find myself having to work around them to do common tasks rather than feeling that they are working for me.

              Comment

              • mart1711
                Automated Home Jr Member
                • Oct 2016
                • 31

                #22
                Dear all,

                So the kit received today and I set to work with high expectations.

                As a reminder - I already have a BDR91 that is controlling my central heating demand, so I thought I could just connect up the evoHome controller to that.

                However, it seems that I'm too stupid to do so.

                I have purchased 4 HR924s so I want to create four zones. However, I want every zone to be able to operate the BDR91 / CH valve, which will activate the boiler through the limit switches.

                So I factory reset the controller, and power it on.

                I go to Guided Configuration.

                It says - Do you require to control the heat demand (boiler) - I say "no" (assuming that this would bind a boiler realy, which I don't want).
                It says - Do you require to control a Stored HW Cylinder - I say "no" as I only want to control CH.

                Then it says "select the heating type for the zones that you are creating" and I get the choice between UFH / Mixing Valve / Rad Valve and Zone Valve. This is where I'm lost. I am struggling with the wording "heating type". I guess my "heating type" really is the zone valve?

                Or do I need to choose "Rad Valve", to then pair up the HR924s per zone? But where and how do I then pair up the BDR91? Into every single zone??

                Looking at the instructions, section "Power up and bind a Wireless Relay Box to control a Zone Valve", it asks me to create a new zone for that. But really I want this BDR91 to be used from all the different zones!?

                Help?

                Cheers

                Comment

                • HenGus
                  Automated Home Legend
                  • May 2014
                  • 1001

                  #23
                  You need to look carefully at the installation instructions. The controller talks to the heating BDR not each of the HR92s. The HR92s talk to the controller and must be placed in a zone or zones. i have 12 zones. I can delete/change zones at will and it doesn't affect the controller's link to the heating BDR.

                  Comment

                  • mart1711
                    Automated Home Jr Member
                    • Oct 2016
                    • 31

                    #24
                    Thank you! Yes, that is exactly what I am trying to achieve.

                    Following the instructions to "Bind the Radiator Controllers (HR92)" I can do this happily, and then they'll all be bound to their own zones.

                    Then I am assuming I need to follow the instructions to "Power up and bind a Wireless Relay Box (BDR91) to control a Zone Valve". But when I do that, it asks me to add a new zone and will place the BDR91 into that zone!? That's the part I can't figure out...

                    Comment

                    • bruce_miranda
                      Automated Home Legend
                      • Jul 2014
                      • 2307

                      #25
                      The Honeywell terminology is quite poor. If I understand right you have the main controller, 4 radiator valves and 1 BDR91. You want to let the radiator valves demand heat but instead of directly controlling the boiler, you want to instead switch on the CH zone valve, which in turn will fire the boiler. (Similar wiring to what a time clock would have).

                      How is your HW demand going to be satisfied? Normal time clock?

                      Are there any radiators that don't have an HR92 on them and need heating?

                      What I would do is pair the BDR91 as the boiler relay, but instead of wiring it to fire the boiler, I would wire it to switch on the CH motor valve.

                      Comment

                      • mart1711
                        Automated Home Jr Member
                        • Oct 2016
                        • 31

                        #26
                        Correct. I already have a BDR91 wired in to control the CH valve. This is working with the current Honeywell (non-EvoHome) thermostat. Ideally I wouldn't touch the wiring.

                        HW demand is satisfied through a normal timer clock.

                        I plan to fit HR92s on all radiators.

                        Incidentally I have since come across the Wireless Binding Guide http://getconnected.honeywell.com/en...e%20(v1-0).pdf, which says:


                        To bind a Wireless Relay Box (BDR91) to a Wi-Fi evohome Controller (ATC928G3000) to control a Sundial valve (hot water or heating)..

                        On the evohome Controller
                        1 Press and hold SETTINGS for 5 seconds
                        2 Press the green tick
                        3 Press SYSTEM DEVICES
                        4 Press STORED HOT WATER
                        5 Press ENABLED
                        6 Press HOT WATER VALVE BINDING or HEATING VALVE BINDING

                        Not too sure why this under "stored hot water" but hey - ok.

                        So when I do this (Stored Hot Water / Enabled) it just says "Hot Water Sensor" - Press BIND button on sensor. I don't have a hot water sensor though? Huh?

                        Comment

                        • HenGus
                          Automated Home Legend
                          • May 2014
                          • 1001

                          #27
                          This thread might help.Richard at The EvohomeShop is an Evohome expert.

                          Comment

                          • mart1711
                            Automated Home Jr Member
                            • Oct 2016
                            • 31

                            #28
                            Originally posted by bruce_miranda View Post
                            What I would do is pair the BDR91 as the boiler relay, but instead of wiring it to fire the boiler, I would wire it to switch on the CH motor valve.
                            Sorry - I misread this part. I guess this is exactly what my current wiring is, just that my current BDR91 is controlled by a CM727 rather than evoHome. So you're saying I set the BDR91 up as a boiler realy (System Devices / Boiler Control / Wireless Relay Box)?

                            I'm still baffled by the fact that it looks like I cannot set this up as heating Sundial valve without having the hot water kit when the instructions clearly say "control a Sundial valve (hot water or heating"....

                            Comment

                            • HenGus
                              Automated Home Legend
                              • May 2014
                              • 1001

                              #29
                              Originally posted by mart1711 View Post
                              Correct. I already have a BDR91 wired in to control the CH valve. This is working with the current Honeywell (non-EvoHome) thermostat. Ideally I wouldn't touch the wiring.

                              HW demand is satisfied through a normal timer clock.

                              I plan to fit HR92s on all radiators.

                              Incidentally I have since come across the Wireless Binding Guide http://getconnected.honeywell.com/en...e%20(v1-0).pdf, which says:


                              To bind a Wireless Relay Box (BDR91) to a Wi-Fi evohome Controller (ATC928G3000) to control a Sundial valve (hot water or heating)..

                              On the evohome Controller
                              1 Press and hold SETTINGS for 5 seconds
                              2 Press the green tick
                              3 Press SYSTEM DEVICES
                              4 Press STORED HOT WATER
                              5 Press ENABLED
                              6 Press HOT WATER VALVE BINDING or HEATING VALVE BINDING

                              Not too sure why this under "stored hot water" but hey - ok.

                              So when I do this (Stored Hot Water / Enabled) it just says "Hot Water Sensor" - Press BIND button on sensor. I don't have a hot water sensor though? Huh?
                              Google 'Honeywell Evohome Installation Guide' and you can download a PDF. The procedure for linking BDRs to the controller is broadly the same except HW control binds a sensor to the system as well.

                              Comment

                              • mart1711
                                Automated Home Jr Member
                                • Oct 2016
                                • 31

                                #30
                                Originally posted by HenGus View Post
                                Google 'Honeywell Evohome Installation Guide' and you can download a PDF. The procedure for linking BDRs to the controller is broadly the same except HW control binds a sensor to the system as well.
                                Thanks! But in the installation guide the only relevant part I can see is the section: "Wireless Relay Box BDR91 to control a Zone Valve" on page 20, and that requires me to add the BDR91 to a zone, which I don't want to do. I want to have it as a system device.

                                However, based on the above, it seems there are only two ways of doing this

                                1) I connect it up as a Boiler Control BDR91, even though it controls my CH valve and not the boiler - this is how I understood bruce_miranda's post.
                                2) I set it up as a sundial valve, which sounds like the correct way of doing it, but it looks like I cannot do this unless I also have the hot water kit - which I currently don't.

                                Does that sound right?

                                Comment

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