HouseHeat system

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  • sooty7
    Automated Home Jr Member
    • Oct 2007
    • 20

    Originally posted by martynwendon View Post
    Hi Paul,

    Can I ask how you achieved water and gas monitoring?

    Electricity was easy here as the meter had a convenient pulse output LED. Gas is proving more challenging but I think I can get a count off one of the digits on the meter. I've been struggling with water though - I did get a pulse unit from the meter manufacturer to fit to it, but so far haven't been able to read any pulses from it


    Cheers,

    Martyn
    No problem Martyn.

    I have 2 RFXMeter devices giving 6 counters in total.

    For electricity I use the RFXpwr with current transformer. I have calibrated the RFXWr to get it reading wihthin 1% of the utility meter.

    For hot and cold water I installed 2 of my own meters with pulse output.
    Here's the links to the meters I used.



    I installed the cold meter into the pipework where it enters the property and the hot meter in the hot feed from the combi boiler.

    For gas, I have the Elster BK-G4 gas meter installed by the gas company. This meter has a place for the pulse counter to be installed which I obtained from here http://www.mytub.co.uk/product_infor...product=366935

    The G4 gas meter does not have an LED or even 1 number that is a different colour, making monitoring with a photo sensor etc almost impossible.

    The pulse counter is counting the last digit on the meter which is 1/100 of a cubic meter per pulse.

    Paul..

    Comment

    • MikeM
      Automated Home Jr Member
      • Mar 2008
      • 36

      When do I get my money back ?

      Originally posted by sooty7 View Post
      I did a similar excersise just before last winter. I replaced a 15 year old conventional gas boiler with an all singing all dancing gas combi and Hometronic with 14 HR80 valves.

      I did monitor this using actual gas consumed rather than the cost and I recon to be saving about 10% over the old boiler and standard TRV's. On the plus side, I suppose it is helping the environment a little, so it must be worth it.
      Sooty7, the economics are a bit depressing ! I replaced my 20 year old boiler with a Worcester about 18 months agao and also fitted all new Danfoss TRVs. Last winter my gas usage was down by about 25% but Gas prices went up and my quarterly bill was about the same. As I fit a zoned system I want to see if there are further benefits but need more accurate daily gas consumption figures. I do feel that eventually there will be payback as the only way I see gas prices going is up !

      Comment

      • martynwendon
        Automated Home Sr Member
        • Feb 2009
        • 57

        Originally posted by sooty7 View Post
        No problem Martyn.



        For hot and cold water I installed 2 of my own meters with pulse output.
        Here's the links to the meters I used.

        http://www.smartpowershop.co.uk/prod..._pulse_output/
        Thanks Paul, I think I may be going down the sub-meter route too as I can't seem to get anything useful off our water meter.

        Originally posted by sooty7 View Post

        For gas, I have the Elster BK-G4 gas meter installed by the gas company. This meter has a place for the pulse counter to be installed which I obtained from here http://www.mytub.co.uk/product_infor...product=366935

        The G4 gas meter does not have an LED or even 1 number that is a different colour, making monitoring with a photo sensor etc almost impossible.

        The pulse counter is counting the last digit on the meter which is 1/100 of a cubic meter per pulse.

        Paul..
        Ours is an old Parkinson Cowan meter, no sign of anything new from the Gas company yet.

        I've been trying today to see if I can detect anything off of the little spinning red dial (1 revolution = 1 cubic foot), but haven't had much luck so far.

        The least significant digit hasn't rotated around enough today for me to see all the numbers on it, so I can't tell yet if there's a reflective spot or not.....


        Martyn
        My Blog

        Comment

        • MikeM
          Automated Home Jr Member
          • Mar 2008
          • 36

          Originally posted by martynwendon View Post
          That makes two of us!

          What Gas Meter do you have? Does it have a handy pulse output, or are you reading digits?
          The meter was replaced about a year ago with an Actaris G4. I have rigged up a infra-red reflective sensor to read the silvered digit zero. A PIC monitors and counts pulses and transmits to a PICAxe based logger which dumps a csv file. I STILL haven't finished it yet but dug it out before Xmas with the best intentions !

          Another unfinished project is decoding the RF data from an Electrisave electricity monitor



          Seems like I should just buy a RFXCOM system and be done with it like you have done !

          Comment

          • MikeM
            Automated Home Jr Member
            • Mar 2008
            • 36

            Actaris G4 Meter

            Further to previous post it looks like the above meter should be 'ready' for pulse output facility ?

            Anyone know if it is ?

            Comment

            • sooty7
              Automated Home Jr Member
              • Oct 2007
              • 20

              Originally posted by MikeM View Post
              Further to previous post it looks like the above meter should be 'ready' for pulse output facility ?

              Anyone know if it is ?
              Looking here http://www.actaris.com/html/products-56.html would suggest that it is pulse counter ready.

              Here's a link to the pulse module at the same site http://www.actaris.com/html/index.ph...edia&idmp=9761

              Paul..

              Comment

              • sooty7
                Automated Home Jr Member
                • Oct 2007
                • 20

                Originally posted by MikeM View Post
                The meter was replaced about a year ago with an Actaris G4. I have rigged up a infra-red reflective sensor to read the silvered digit zero. A PIC monitors and counts pulses and transmits to a PICAxe based logger which dumps a csv file. I STILL haven't finished it yet but dug it out before Xmas with the best intentions !

                Another unfinished project is decoding the RF data from an Electrisave electricity monitor



                Seems like I should just buy a RFXCOM system and be done with it like you have done !
                I am a bit of an RFXCOM collector. I do have links to the RFXCOM creator, so I am probably biased towards the products, nevertheless they do work very well and particularly in combination with Homeseer and the RFXCOM plug-in which is the way I am doing it.

                If you enjoy the challenge of creating your own hardware solutions then I say why not have a go. I too (as I'm sure most home automators do) like playing around at creating my own solutions, but sometimes I just bite the bullet and buy a ready made solution.

                Back on topic:
                The economics of upgrading my heating system did not do anything at all for the WAF, but there you go.

                If the househeat system had been a bit more prevelant when I upgraded, then I would probably have gone down that route and created a Homeseer plug-in for the USB interface. As it is I have the Honeywell system and some basic integration with Homeseer via an RFXIO and Honeywell IO module. This allows me to set lifestyles on the Hometronic manager from Homeseer which works pretty well although it doesn't give me full room by room control.

                We also have a ducted air con system here in 2/3 of the house which is actually cheaper to run in heating mode than using the gas boiler when the outside temperature is above 5 C, but I haven't got round to adding any sort of room by room control to it yet.

                Paul..

                Comment

                • MikeM
                  Automated Home Jr Member
                  • Mar 2008
                  • 36

                  Actaris G8 Pulse Output

                  Originally posted by sooty7 View Post
                  Here's a link to the pulse module at the same site http://www.actaris.com/html/index.ph...edia&idmp=9761
                  Thanks - you obviously know where to look for the info. I searched when the meter was installed but didn't find that link.

                  I will experiment with hooking a reed switch near the zero digit this weekend. Zero power and no need for careful alignment.

                  Comment

                  • al1234567
                    Automated Home Lurker
                    • Jul 2009
                    • 5

                    +1 for rfxcom+rfxmeter

                    I use rfxmeter to count pulses from the gas meter, and count reflections from the water meter.

                    I have an OWL clamp wireless electric consumption monitor. The signal is picked up by the rfxcom and fed into Homeseer.

                    Comment

                    • autolog
                      Automated Home Jr Member
                      • Dec 2009
                      • 24

                      Originally posted by martynwendon View Post
                      I can think of a couple of ways to do this: ....

                      2) Is you do want to integrate the kickspace heater into the HouseHeat system (I would if it were me) then I'd insert a TRV in the flow pipe to it and control the flow with an FHT80B / Actuator pair. Then I'd put a flow switch (such as http://cpc.farnell.com/jsp/level5/mo...cpc/265321.xml) in the flow pipe after the TRV to control the heater on/off fan. In theory the Actuator / TRV will control the heat flow (and talk to the HouseHeat Boiler Relay) and the flow switch will power the fan on/off as needed.
                      I have investigated this a bit further with a neighbour and he has pointed out that the kickspace heater has an integral heat sensor that won't switch the fan on until the water gets hot (43 C) - therefore the flow switch is not needed. So it makes this solution even easier - thanks again for the suggestion

                      Comment

                      • sooty7
                        Automated Home Jr Member
                        • Oct 2007
                        • 20

                        Originally posted by autolog View Post
                        I have investigated this a bit further with a neighbour and he has pointed out that the kickspace heater has an integral heat sensor that won't switch the fan on until the water gets hot (43 C) - therefore the flow switch is not needed. So it makes this solution even easier - thanks again for the suggestion
                        I have 2 kickspace heaters and all I have done is to install TRV valves and the motorised heads in the flow line, as previously sugested. They do indeed have a temp sensor that only switches the fan on when water temp is above a given level, so a few minutes after the valve closes the fan stops.

                        It was a little more difficult for me using the Honeywell valves as opposed to House Heat. Because the HR80's don't have an external temp sensor, therefore the valve needs to be installed inside the room and can't be hidden under the kitchen units.

                        Basically I altered the pipework to bring the TRV valve out of the side of the end kitchen unit about 2' from floor level. This stops it from getting damaged by vacuum cleaners etc and makes local adjustment and battery changing easier.

                        I suppose you won't have this problem with the House Heat valve as it can be installed under the units and the remote stat installed in a convenient location. You will only need to gain access to change the batteries.

                        As I previously mentioned, I wish House Heat had been as popular 2 years ago. I would likely have chosen it over the Honeywell, just for its better integration possibilities.

                        Despite the fact that the Honeywell system does not use external temp sensors, it does a pretty good job of maintaining the set temperature. I have monitored it with external room sensors and it is generally within 1 degree of the set point. I suppose they must have built in some kind of logic to compensate for the valve being located close to the radiator.

                        Paul..

                        Comment

                        • SensibleHeatUK
                          Moderator
                          • Feb 2009
                          • 228

                          The Hometronic range has 2 models of room temperature sensors that can be used in zones where HR80s are not in locations that allow reasonable room temperature measurement (radiators in cabinets etc). One model is a basic sensor, the other includes a setpoint offset dial to allow the setpoint to be trimmed by upto +- 12 degrees (the dial is a simple mechanical dial so whatever setting is selected is aplied to whatever setpoint is in use).
                          Sensible Heat
                          SensibleHeat.co.uk

                          Comment

                          • sooty7
                            Automated Home Jr Member
                            • Oct 2007
                            • 20

                            Originally posted by SensibleHeatUK View Post
                            The Hometronic range has 2 models of room temperature sensors that can be used in zones where HR80s are not in locations that allow reasonable room temperature measurement (radiators in cabinets etc). One model is a basic sensor, the other includes a setpoint offset dial to allow the setpoint to be trimmed by upto +- 12 degrees (the dial is a simple mechanical dial so whatever setting is selected is aplied to whatever setpoint is in use).
                            Can you give some model numbers of the 2 types of sensors and the method used to interface them to the Hometronic manager please?

                            It seems to work OK by moving the HR80 away from the kickspace heater, but I have another application that could benefit from a remote sensor.

                            Perhaps we should move this topic to the Hometronic section!

                            Paul..

                            Comment

                            • SensibleHeatUK
                              Moderator
                              • Feb 2009
                              • 228

                              The current models are HCF82 & HCW82 (the latter has the adjuster), both need V7.0 firmware or later on your HCM200D. Note that none of the recent modules are compatible with older single frequency (433MHz) Managers, they newer modules all operate on 868 MHz.

                              As soon as either module is bound as a room sensor then it becomes the controlling sensor for the zone so all HR80s within that zone use the HCF/HCW for the sensor value instead of their built-in sensor.
                              Sensible Heat
                              SensibleHeat.co.uk

                              Comment

                              • MikeM
                                Automated Home Jr Member
                                • Mar 2008
                                • 36

                                Ultra Cheap Remote Gas Meter Reader

                                Reference:

                                http://www.actaris.com/html/products-56.html[/url] would suggest that it is pulse counter ready.

                                Sooty7,

                                Thanks to your info on my Actaris G4 gas meter I hooked up an ultra cheap remote reader using a reed switch and a 'hacked' Pedometer I found in the street !

                                I just opened and removed the pedometer switch and soldered a couple of wires to the PCB where the switch contacts were. I ran these out to a reed switch and away I went ! Of course, you need to note the actual Gas meter reading when you zero the counter. The reed switch seemed to work almost anywhere around the casing and I used double sided foam tape to stick it on. Much better than poking around a dim cupboard.

                                You have also spurred me on the finish my RF Pulse counter. Thanks again for the info
                                Attached Files
                                Last edited by MikeM; 4 January 2010, 05:08 PM. Reason: G4 Meter not G8

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